March 21, 2025
I was on the latest episode of the Permission To Shine Podcast!
The episode is called “The Secrets To Building a Powerful Network of Friends w/ Noah Berkson”.
We talked about cold outreach, handling objections, and the biggest mistake people make about networking.
Here are other topics we discussed:
- Make introductions the right way – Always provide context so both people see the value.
- Say yes to everything in your 20s – Opportunities come from showing up.
- Pick up the tab – When dining with someone much wealthier, covering the bill makes an impression.
- Make friends, not “connections” – Real relationships > transactional networking.
- Find your X factor – I cold-DM’d Jess Mah because she flies planes. A unique hook stands out.
- Vulnerability is underrated – Being open, stumbling, and failing brings people closer.
Listen Here
Tune in and listen to the full conversation here.
You can also listen to the episode on Spotify by clicking here.
Full Transcript
Noah Berkson: There are people who are starting out in this, and then there are people who are a little further along in their career. Early on, saying yes is a superpower; later on, saying no is a superpower.
Andrew Namanny: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Permission to Shine. It’s your host, Andrew Namanny, and we are going to be covering the topic of building a network and meeting the most interesting people on this planet. Today, I brought on none other than Noah Berkson. He is a serial entrepreneur who has exited multiple companies. He’s in YPO, gets to meet a lot of interesting people, and he’s also the host of a new podcast called Dose of Greatness. He and his business partner, Jess Ma, who’s extraordinary—if you don’t know Jess, she’s 34, she’s started over 10 companies at this point, has a commercial pilot’s license, flies her own plane. Mad interesting. So Jess and Noah recently hosted Outcove Valley, where they brought together 65 of the most interesting entrepreneurs in Utah. I talked about it on the last episode with Garrett Adair. It was an extraordinary event, and it reminded me that Noah is an incredible networker. So I want to invite him on to share with you guys tips and tricks. How do you perfect the cold outreach? How do you push through when people are telling you no? And where should you be hanging out if you want to meet the most interesting people? So please enjoy this conversation. If you do, do me a solid: share it with somebody you love. It will mean the world to me and make a big difference in the show and my ability to get you guys extraordinary guests. Let’s get into it with Noah Berkson. Noah, in 30 seconds or less, how would you introduce yourself?
Noah Berkson: I am a serial entrepreneur. I call myself relentlessly resourceful. I’ve started seven companies, sold three, currently run a platform of fintech and financial service businesses where we own, operate, and invest in financial service and fintech companies. We host a podcast called Dose of Greatness along with an event series called Outcove Valley, which is a community for entrepreneurs and investors, thinkers who want to go deep and make lifelong connections.
Andrew Namanny: Love that. Welcome to the show, Noah.
Noah Berkson: Thanks for having me.
Andrew Namanny: You have one of the best networks I’ve ever seen. I feel very fortunate to meet a lot of people who have incredible networks, and you are certainly at the top of that list. Were you always super intentional about building this network?
Noah Berkson: I built a network out of necessity originally. Like you, I grew up in Iowa. I didn’t know what a network was, had no clue. But I started a business in college, and it was out of necessity because I needed to go sell a product. And so I went from knowing virtually nobody, you know, outside of, like, the people I went to high school with or the people that I was in college with, to I need to meet, like, real adults, and I need to sell them a product that’s very expensive. And so I went to—I mean, I just—I went to everything. I said yes to everything, went to every happy hour, went to every networking event. Anytime someone would invite me to go to coffee, I’d go with them. If someone would write me to do a phone call, like on LinkedIn, even if they were trying to sell me something, I’d end up taking that phone call just to, like, meet that person, because maybe they’d introduce me to somebody else that I could sell a product to. I talked to tens of thousands of people.
Andrew Namanny: Wow. How quickly did that work for you? Did it take time, or was it pretty instantaneous?
Noah Berkson: It definitely took time. I think probably this started when I was, like, 19, and it probably took till I was 25. And the way that I would measure that is when I meet somebody and then they introduce me to somebody else, like, what’s the quality of that person they’re introducing me to? And I think it took probably about six years to get to that where the quality was so consistent. Every time somebody introduces me to somebody, it’s like, that’s a high-quality person that I’m meeting. It takes a long time. I think a lot of people underestimate it. And they go, oh, I just need to go to, like, one dinner. I need to go to one networking event, and I’m going to meet, like, my best friend. I’m going to meet the person I’m going to do business with. And it’s just not like that. It’s such a numbers game, and you have to put yourself out there.
Andrew Namanny: I love this. I really want this to be a masterclass on networking, right? So if you’re somebody who’s listening to this and you feel like you don’t have the network you want, I want Noah to be able to teach you how to build that. If you’re somebody who does have a network, how do you elevate that to even the next level? Because hopefully you’re somebody who has that growth mindset. And so let’s just start at the top. Where do you think somebody should start if they want to build a powerful network?
Noah Berkson: I think you start by saying yes. I think there’s a lot of power in being the person that just says yes to everything. I think when you’re early on in your career, you just have to say yes. You have to go to everything. Like I was saying, you go to every happy hour event. You go to every conference that you can go to. I mean, when I was young, I would sneak into conferences. I’ve snuck into probably 20 conferences. I would go because when I was younger, I couldn’t afford to go, right? And it’d be like, oh, it’s South by Southwest, let’s say, right? I have a great story about going to South by Southwest. We were there, and I didn’t have a ticket, and it was just too expensive. I was like, how do I get in? I kind of tried to—I saw the escalator, and there’s, like, a guard there, and then there’s a guard on top. Like, I can’t really go there. Like, is there a back door? Is there a way to get in? Nothing. And so I look and, like, who’s speaking today, right? Like, how can I use one of these people to try and, like, talk my way in, like I know them? And so I go up to the speaker’s desk—like, there’s a desk for speakers where they check in. And I go up there all frantic. And I’m in just, like, a black T-shirt and jeans—like, I look like I could probably be, like, security or, like, I work there. And I go—I come up there frantic. I go, oh my God, I’m here for Howard Schultz. He was the CEO of Starbucks, and he was speaking. And I said, I’m here to pick him up, to bring him to his next event after he talks, but they didn’t give me a badge. And I’m just, like, acting frantic, and I’m like, I’m gonna get fired from my job. And they’re like, don’t worry, we got you. And they hand me an all-access pass, and they’re like, here, let us escort you there. And now I’m, like, backstage for where Howard Schultz is speaking and end up, you know, end up in there. And I’ve just—I’ve done this time and time again.
Andrew Namanny: How nervous are you at that moment?
Noah Berkson: Oh, incredibly nervous. But I think once you just kind of, like, go through those repetitions, I think just generally this is good to be able to—to be able to kind of, in the moment, like, have to figure it out. And I’m like, I don’t really know what path I’m going to go down if they ask me what question, but I’m going to have to figure this out on the fly.
Andrew Namanny: Dude, that’s so good.
Noah Berkson: I think it’s saying yes to things. I think it’s going to anything that you can go to. I think it’s just being proactive. I think a lot of people—they just don’t—they just aren’t proactive. And you need to be so proactive to really build a network. And you need to invest in relationships. I think something a lot of people get wrong about relationships is there’s, like, this—like, momentum. Like, momentum in life is everything, but especially in relationships. And I think there’s this momentum where, let’s say I meet you, right, for the first time—like, there’s this window of momentum where I can either be your friend and we’re going to develop a really close friendship, or we’re just going to be, like, loose acquaintances forever. And in that time, you need to really invest. So I meet you on, let’s say, a call. We do a Zoom call, and we, like, get along. And I’m like, oh, like, I like Andrew. I go—I need to say, hey, let’s—next Saturday, like, let’s go get a coffee, right? Or you should come over to do this thing, or let’s go do a workout, or let’s do something. And once we do that, it’s, like, there’s a very high likelihood we’re gonna be close friends, right? And we’re gonna actually, like, we’re gonna get along. If I don’t do that, like, most likely we’re never going to—we’re never gonna be close friends. You’ll be a loose acquaintance. I’ll be able to say I know Andrew, but I’m never gonna, like, get that—get the special, like, the magic that happens from this relationship.
Andrew Namanny: So you’re saying you and I get set up on a Zoom on Tuesday. Then we’re going to have that. You’re going to say, okay, Andrew, somebody that I find interesting, I want to build a friendship with him. You’re going to say, let’s go have coffee on Saturday. Yes, we have a good coffee. Then what are you going to do?
Noah Berkson: I’m going to propose the next thing, which is always trying to propose the next thing. That’s probably going to be, hey, I’m going to host a dinner, and why don’t you come, and I’m going to invite another person or a couple other people that you’re going to find very interesting and vice versa.
Andrew Namanny: Yeah. What if I say no to that? Like, I’m just like, you said yes—I totally agree with that. For my 20s, it was all yes, yes, yes to everything. And now I’ve entered my no era, which sucks in a lot of ways, but it’s very empowering in some ways. I can’t say yes to everything now. As badly as I wish I could hang out with you, I have to say no to this.
Noah Berkson: I’m going to keep trying, and I’m going to invite you to a couple more things. Like, something that you realize is, I think there’s a distinction, right? There are people who are starting out in this, and then there are people who are a little further along in their career, right? We’re, like, saying early on, saying yes is a superpower; later on, saying no is a superpower. So I think it’s—I think it’s very—I think there’s maybe two paths that we can go with this. If you say no, I’ll invite you a few more times because I know, hey, let’s say I’m later along in my career, and I’m going to say, I know Andrew’s busy, so he might just say no. But I’m going to keep inviting him because I’m going to be on Andrew’s radar now, and he’s going to know that, like, I—I care because I keep reaching out and I keep inviting him to events. And even if he says no, like, the likelihood eventually that you’re going to show up is pretty high because eventually, like, you’re going to have—you’re going to have an excuse the first time, right? You’re, like, I already have a—I have a trip this weekend, and the next time, oh, I have this conference I’m going to. And the next time, like, eventually you’re going to run out of excuses, and either you’re going to have to say, hey, I’m just not going to come, or you’re just going to stop responding to me. So it’s, like, I’m going to end up understanding what—like, how you actually feel about it because a lot of people aren’t really upfront right away.
Andrew Namanny: Do you take it personally when people say no to you to these things?
Noah Berkson: I used to take it more personally, but I think it’s value, right? So I think, yes, there’s a piece that people are just busy, and successful people—the biggest thing to protect is your time, right? Like, your time is going to be your most valuable asset. So if someone keeps saying no to me, it’s pretty clear, like, they don’t see the value in what I’m bringing to them. And so then it’s a chance to kind of step back and say, how do I reevaluate? What value isn’t there? What am I not bringing? And sometimes I’ll ask people, you know, I’ll be very direct and just ask, like, hey, you keep saying no to—you keep saying no to these things. I think this would align really well with you, where the people who are there would align really well—you’d really like them. So, like, what’s the reason you’re saying no?
Andrew Namanny: I think, having seen you build your network, I think that persistence is so fundamental to it and not taking it so personally when people say no to you. Like, the special relationships in my life that I think about, that really helped me from a business standpoint—dude, I would ask them seven, eight, nine times. Yeah, getting no’s in a row, and I’m just like, I don’t give a shit—like, yeah, I believe in this. I know that we’re supposed to be on the same path together, so just keep doing it.
Noah Berkson: Yeah, there’s so much power in persistence and just over and over and over and not letting your ego take a hit. It’s really easy early on to let your ego take a hit. And you also go, like, hey, I meet somebody, and we get along really well. And then I see, like, you know, I don’t know, they’re hosting some event or a party or a dinner, and I’m like, why did I not get invited to that? Like, why aren’t—why aren’t they inviting me? And again, you have to ask yourself, like, well, why aren’t they? It’s easy to say, like, oh, they just don’t like me. But it’s, like, well, is it the people that they’re there with? Like, you don’t think that I would mesh really well with them? Like, what’s the value, right? And just understanding, like, how do people perceive you? And very few people actually take the time to think about, like, how am I being perceived, and what am I doing that, like, either makes somebody like me or makes me magnetic as a person or makes someone say, I don’t really want that person—like, maybe I want to hang out with that person one-on-one, but I don’t really want to bring them around, like, my friends or my network or introduce them to people that I know.
Andrew Namanny: Yeah. That word “magnetic” that you just used—that’s interesting. What do you think is something that everybody could do to make them more socially magnetic?
Noah Berkson: There’s probably three things. Two are very basic. Smile—like, just look like you have energy, right? A lot of people are—a lot of people are sitting there—they’re, you know, kind of disconnected in social environments where they’re, like, sitting there on their phone, like, pretending they have something better to do because they’re just not getting the interaction they need in those moments. So they just sit there on their phone, and it’s, like, nobody wants to approach somebody that’s sitting on their phone. When you’re, like, looking down and you’re texting, no one’s going to come approach you and, like, try and talk to you. Why would you do that? Like, you need to be inviting. And I think just smiling goes such—just, like, smiling goes a really long way. Making eye contact with people. And so actually, just, like, making good eye contact is another one that people just don’t do well. They kind of, you know, you see people at, like, an event, and you kind of just, like, look down—you, like, sort of acknowledge them, but you don’t fully acknowledge them, and you look down—just, like, just make eye contact for a second. And most of the time, that’s going to lead to you actually going over and talking to that person. The third would be, and probably the most important, is just curiosity—just being curious. I think people love—like, people underestimate how much people love to talk about themselves and love to share their story. So if you can just go and be genuinely curious about someone, people want to talk to you. I’ve had, like, funny scenarios or situations where I’ll meet someone for the first time at some event, a conference, a dinner, and they’ll go, like, that was one of the best conversations I’ve had in a long time. And in my mind, I’m like, I didn’t really talk about myself at all. I just asked you questions—like, you just talked the entire time, and you’re, like, in their mind, like, this was the best conversation I’ve had in a long time—like, interesting. So I think just being genuinely curious about people and asking questions is something that’s going to get you very far.
Andrew Namanny: So good. Noah Victor Vascovo, one of the most interesting humans on the planet, famously said, “If you want to be the most interesting person in the room, be the most interested.” And I think you do an exceptional job of that.
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: You talking about kind of body language, smiling, eye contact—I love eating by myself. Last night, I went to Pachay.
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: You’ve been to Pachay and—
Noah Berkson: Love Pachay.
Andrew Namanny: It’s so good. Laurel Canyon, by myself.
Noah Berkson: I used to live right up the road from it. Yeah. I would walk down there for dinner. Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: It’s so good.
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: And walking is great because the parking is a freaking mess. And I sat there, and your natural tendency is—it’s kind of fidgety. You’re, like, I don’t know where to look. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to sit on my phone—
Noah Berkson: Right. That’s not—
Andrew Namanny: That’s not my vibe when I’m there. I had to get a couple things done, and then I want to put my phone away. And it’s, like—but, like, where do I look? And it’s, like, I’m consciously thinking—it’s, like, okay, take up space, right? Don’t cower. Don’t—don’t try to minimize your space, which is my natural tendency. It’s, like, take up space. Look at people, you know? But it’s awkward.
Noah Berkson: It’s awkward. And I think it’s—I think there’s also—I don’t know if this is a rule of mine, but people who eat alone are genuinely quite interesting and, generally, like, you can make some really great relationships from finding the people who are sitting alone and having dinner. I actually—I have a good story about this.
Andrew Namanny: Do tell.
Noah Berkson: My girlfriend and I were in New York. This is probably, like, two and a half or three years ago, and we went out for dinner, and it was, like, our date night. And of course, I didn’t make a reservation—I was supposed to. And so we tried to walk into this place for dinner that we wanted to go, and they say, oh, we only have room at the bar. And it was, like, the whole restaurant’s full, but the bar is empty. And there’s one guy sitting at the bar, and he’s, like, in a sweatsuit—like, an older guy in a sweatsuit at, like, a very nice restaurant. Totally, like, out of place, sitting at the bar. And so we go, and we sit, and I’m just thinking, like, this guy—you get a sense about people, right?
Andrew Namanny: Your siren’s going off.
Noah Berkson: I don’t know. He just seems out of—like, seems out of place here. He’s sitting by himself—like, okay, like, I kind of want to talk to him, but it’s, like, I’m right here. Then my girlfriend’s between us, and then he’s sitting on the other side, and there’s maybe one chair between my girlfriend and him. And I’m just, like, you know, I’m trying to, like, be in this date night, but also you’re thinking, like, oh, what’s—what’s going on with this guy over here? It’s just, like, an itch I can’t scratch. And then finally, he, like, opens up this—he opens up this conversation, and he starts—he says, like, hey, what are you guys doing here? And I’m trying to make small talk—I’m trying to, like, not ruin this date night of, like, we hadn’t had this in a long time—trying to not ruin it. And I’m, like—but I know the deeper I go, the more that I’m going to—like, I’m going to get sucked into the conversation—like, the deeper I go, the higher likelihood I’m going to get sucked into this conversation. I forget what he mentioned. He said, like, you know, I live here now. I’m retired—like, I have a couple kids in college here, so I moved to the city. I’m retired. He’s, like, but I work—like, I work a couple hours a day. I was, like—like—like, that’s really—like, okay, I kind of need to know now—like, you’re retired, but you work a couple hours a day? I’m, like, oh, what do you—what do you do—like, what do you—what do you do? He’s, like, oh, I’m in—I do, like, I do loans—bridge loans for—for commercial real estate and development. I was, like, oh, cool, cool, cool. And he just starts talking about, like, oh, I just got this house over here—I’m living close by, whatever. And I go—I’m, like, just super curious—this is a random question—how much money do you make working a couple hours a day? I just thought that would either shut the conversation down entirely, and then we can just get back to dinner, or it’s going to lead to this probably really interesting answer. He’s, like—like, last year or so far this year? And I’m, like, so far this year. And we’re probably in June of this year. He’s, like, made about $21 million. And then I’m, like, oh no—like, now I’m, like, totally—my girlfriend—now I’m, like, totally sucked into this conversation. And start, you know, start talking to this guy, and—and end up—we have a great conversation. He’s, like, oh, we need to, you know, we need to get together again—at some point—like, I’d love to get together—let me get your contact information. And one—one rule I have that I think is actually just a great rule in networking—whenever you have a meal or go do—like, go do something with someone who is more successful than you are, always pick up the check—always pick up the check—because for people who are really successful, generally, they just expect they pay for everything—they just get used to, like, it’s always on me. And it’s, like, a—it’s generally a pretty small thing, but to them, it’s a very big thing that someone else, like, just picks up the tab. So I go over to the bartender—like, I go to the end, you know, kind of try and sneak to, like, get the bill, because we’re leaving, but he’s still there—and, like, hey, can I pick up this guy’s—this guy’s tab? And the bartender, like, looks at me with his eyes kind of big—he’s, like, are you sure you want to do that? I’m, like, what do you mean? He’s, like—he’s sitting there, like, having glasses of wine—he’s, like, let me go check on his tab—his tab’s almost $700. He’s, like, are you sure? And I’m, like, yeah, just do it—like, I’m in it now. And so I do, and we leave, and I get a text maybe an hour later—he’s, like, this is the kindest thing a stranger’s ever done for me—like, let’s get—let’s get together this next week—like, how are these dates, you know? And if there’s anything I can ever do—like, I’m here. And I was, like, that was an expensive one—but you’re, like, oh—like, you just made—you know, you just made a really good friend and someone I still keep in contact with.
Andrew Namanny: You still do—you guys are still friends?
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: Oh, I love that—nicely done. That’s a beautiful story. What’s something that you think people get wrong about building a network?
Noah Berkson: I think people look at networking as, like, this idea of network—to me, like, the definition of—of network is friends. So I think a lot of people look at networks not as friends, but as people I can get something from—like, that is their definition of network: people who can do something for me. And so they act as such in those relationships, which is, what can I get out of this person, and what can this person give to me? And I think when you start any relationship that way, there’s very little chance that’s ever going to be a fruitful relationship from any capacity or very long-lasting because it’s transactional in nature, and it’s not a friendship. So there’s not gonna be that deep-rooted relationship you’re building ‘cause you’re approaching it from the mindset of I need to get something from this person. And then when you feel like you need to get something from someone, it kind of goes on a timeline—so you go, how do I get something from this person as quickly as possible, right?
Andrew Namanny: That’s not gonna happen, dude—this shit takes time.
Noah Berkson: Yeah—so it’s, like, hey, we meet, and then, you know, you—and then I go, hey, Andrew, can you introduce me to this per—like, I went on LinkedIn and saw you’re connected to this person—you introduce me to them, they’d be a really good client for me—awful—you’re immediately going to shut down—you’re going to say, like, I don’t want to introduce someone to this person just to sell something to them. So I think it’s just approaching things from the—like, a network is people I can derive value from and I can just take from as opposed to I can give to.
Andrew Namanny: Do people ever call you a social climber?
Noah Berkson: I have never—I’ve—I’ve never heard that—I really hope not—that would be the—that would be me failing in everything I’ve ever done. I would say I try to give so much value—and I—I was just thinking about this the other day—like, when—when someone asks, like, have you ever called on that—what you’d call, like, a reciprocity bank, right—of, like, you kind of think of it like a bank account, right—and it’s, like, you’re—you’re paying out all this—like, giving value to people—have you ever—have you ever asked people for something—right—and tried to get some, like, reciprocity for what you do? And I’m, like, I can’t think of a single situation—wow—where I’ve asked somebody for something—I hate it—and honestly, it’s probably to my detriment a little bit where, like, I just won’t even ask someone—I’m, like, I will go so far out of my way for someone without them even asking just to be helpful—but then, like, if I need something, I’m really bad about asking—like, I don’t want to inconvenience them, even though they’d do it in a second if I asked—I’m, like, I don’t—I’d rather just figure that out myself.
Andrew Namanny: So you started building your network because of necessity a decade-plus later—where is the motivation now?
Noah Berkson: I think now a lot of it is—is genuinely just building the—building more of a network for the sake of the network that I have. I think I get so much satisfaction out of building value for other people around me—and so, like, the people I have today, it’s, like, who would they benefit from meeting—and, like, how can I meet those people that they would probably never meet and then introduce them? And then maybe they go do business together, they do deals together, they become friends—like, those are the things that really fulfill me. It’s funny—when somebody—I’ll make an introduction for someone or do something for someone, they’ll say, Noah, what can I do for you—you know, you’ve been so helpful—what can I do for you? And my answer every time is, if you ever meet anyone really interesting, just introduce them to me—and they’re—they’re, like, that’s not really a great answer—like, that’s not really what I’m looking for—like, well, who specifically? And I’m, like, no, I don’t—I don’t—like, I don’t need—it’s—it’s not that I want to meet someone because I need something from them, right—or I’m trying to sell them something—it’s, like, I genuinely just want to build new friendships and bring more interesting people into my orbit because that benefits the whole of the network that I have, and that makes the network that much stronger.
Andrew Namanny: How many introductions do you think you’ve made in the last 12 months?
Noah Berkson: I would bet near a thousand—yeah, I think that’s one of the easiest ways to build value, especially right when you meet somebody new, is to just introduce them to other people—and also it’s, like, that makes your value so much more because when I meet you and I immediately just introduce you to a few really good people that are in my network that I know are going to really like you and you’re going to really like them—my value to you is a lot higher, right—immediately I become really valuable because I’m, like, that conduit or that connector between those people, and I don’t need to do anything—and that’s so easy—that takes me two minutes, right—of, like, a text intro or an email intro, but I do that religiously—I mean, I do that every day—I have a to-do list, and that is always on it—so I just make three intros.
Andrew Namanny: What are the ingredients to a really good introduction?
Noah Berkson: I think it’s a clear why you guys would get along or why I’m introducing you. There are some cases where I—this takes a very long time—there are some cases where I just—I have enough social capital, right—that I can introduce you to somebody, and I—I just say, Andrew, David, meet—you guys will get—like, have coffee—you guys will get along great—I don’t even need to give more context—I just know, like, you’re going to trust me that I’m making a good introduction for you.
Andrew Namanny: That’s later in the game.
Noah Berkson: That’s later in the game.
Andrew Namanny: That’s after you’ve made seven introductions for me—and I’m, like, anyone Noah introduces me to—
Noah Berkson: That’s after you’ve made a lot of introductions—I think at first it’s being very clear about why you think two people would—would get value from each other and making sure of it—I think something people get wrong is just introducing people to introduce people—and then if—because if—if you have a bad interaction with somebody, right—then both of you have a very negative interaction or thought of me, right—so if that doesn’t work out like that, that’s kind of on me—and so I want to make sure every time you guys are going to have a very positive interaction—so it’s very clear—like, hey, I think you guys should meet because of this—maybe here’s something you have in common—I think some things that are really hard to introduce—like, I’ve met a lot of—I’ve met a lot of wealth managers—a lot of great wealth managers—really hard to introduce them to people—and a lot of times the first thing they ask is, like—or I go, hey, who can I connect you to—any successful entrepreneur—you know, friends of yours—anyone that’s, like—you know, running a big business or selling a business—I’m, like, oh, man, that’s such a hard one—because, like, the moment I introduce you, I know this is going to be such a—the other person is going to—they’re going to text me and go, no, really, they’re just trying to sell—those are genuinely really hard—but I think the dynamic of people trying to sell someone something—I want to make sure that’s not going to be there when making an introduction—and I’ll make that clear to someone—I’ll say, hey, I’m going to introduce this person—do not sell them—like, here’s the—here’s the other reasons you guys should connect, but do not start the relationship on the basis of I’m trying to sell you something.
Andrew Namanny: Do you have a great opener for somebody that you see in person, live, that you want to approach?
Noah Berkson: I would say one of my—I don’t know if it’s a great opener—I think a lot of people ask—one of the first things they do, especially in, like, kind of networking environments—like, what do you do—what do you do—and no, no, no—nobody wants to answer that question—it’s just—it’s, like, it’s kind of like, how’s your day—and people go, good and great—like, that’s not going to lead anywhere—I’ll say—what—what gives you energy in what you’re doing—and completely takes the question from, like, I have a prerecorded answer to what somebody asks, right—to—oh, actually—like, you actually are interested in me—oh, let me tell you—I’m actually, like, this gives me a lot of energy—and people seem to resonate really well with that.
Andrew Namanny: Interesting—I love that—I—I’ve been using lately is because I’m worried if somebody comes up to me that they’re going to linger, right—it’s, like, they’re going to say they’re going to stay too long—I think people want to know that it’s, like, a short window of time and that they have an easy out if this goes bad—so I’m curious if you’ve ever tried this—I’ll go up to somebody, say, hey, I can’t stay long, but I just saw you—I thought you looked super interesting, and I wanted to introduce myself—boom—and then from there I got to figure it out—but I think that opener just gives people reassurance that this guy’s not going to linger—and it’s a compliment—hey, thought I was interesting—you know, we all want to be interesting.
Noah Berkson: There was a—that’s a great opener—um, I’m remembering this from—did you ever read The Game by Neil?
Andrew Namanny: Neil?
Noah Berkson: I did note that that was something that they used—that actually, it works in any conversation, to your point—but I think especially in dating, where he would approach—when he would go approach women in public because, like, people don’t want you to linger there in conversation—so he’d say, like, I—hey, I just want to—I—I just want to bother you—do you—for one second—like, do you have just one second to answer a question, or do you just have a short—like, I’m giving you a very short window, right—that I’m going to be here—can you answer this—so that people don’t feel—you know, they don’t feel, like, oh, you’re just going to be here, and now I’m stuck in a conversation—so, like, I should just avoid this entirely instead of be in this conversation.
Andrew Namanny: Yeah, well, we’re on the topic of dating—you’ve had a long-term girlfriend, but I’ve been super curious about this lately because, you know, I’m single, and, like, I meet interesting women, and we go on a few dates, right—but then we figure out that we’re not a romantic match for each other—but I still want to keep this person in my life as a friend—do you have experience with that and, like, what are your general thoughts on it?
Noah Berkson: I think trying to build friendship first is really important—and so I think even when I would go into—like, in the past, even when I would go into, like, dating environments, I’d try and keep the initial one, two dates—maybe three dates—as I’m, like, building a friendship here as opposed to—it’s kind of, like—it’s kind of like what people get wrong with networking sometimes too, where they’re, like, they’re so focused on that one outcome that everything—like, it kind of gives you just, like, blurred vision—and you can only see that outcome where it’s, like, just start as a friendship, right—and just, like, have a few—like, be really curious, be interesting—everything isn’t about, like, oh—like, what are you thinking about marriage—oh—like, do you want to have kids—oh, tell me about your last relationship—it’s, like, why don’t we be friends first—because then there’s a high likelihood that if it doesn’t work out, you’re, like, I really like this person and so much too—like, I mean, the people you’re meeting and dating, there’s probably great people in their life too, right—so then if you’re a friend to them, you’re probably going to make other good friends too because you’re probably going on dates with people that, you know, align with—you have similar values and whatnot—as long as you’re kind of screening people ahead of time—so I think just, like, taking the approach of it doesn’t need to immediately be this romantic—like, can I go on a date, and then can we start dating—and then, like, you know, you’re kind of thinking so many steps into the future instead of, like, let’s just see if we, like, connect on a friend level because that’s probably going to lead to a better relationship anyway.
Andrew Namanny: That’s beautifully said, Noah—cold outreach—yeah, my nemesis—talk to me about it.
Noah Berkson: I love cold outreach.
Andrew Namanny: You are a psycho.
Noah Berkson: If there’s one superpower I have, it’s cold outreach—I think as a rule of thumb, as people move up in their career—get more successful—they do less cold outreach because it becomes more of an ego thing where there’s, like, the necessity of cold outreach right when you’re early on because you just need to meet people, and you need to get in front of them—and then there’s, like, the ego thing of, like, well, why do I have to reach out to this person—I have a tendency to do cold outreach, especially to people on podcasts—when I listen to a podcast, and I say, oh, that person was really interesting, I like to do cold outreach to them—and let me give you a couple—let me give you a couple examples of this that were fun—one, there’s a guy—Cal Fussman—Cal is a very famous reporter—he worked for Esquire magazine.
Andrew Namanny: He’s a legend.
Noah Berkson: He’s a legend—and he’s interviewed pretty much every world leader—you know, important political figure, athlete, celebrity, et cetera over the years—and I heard him on Tim Ferriss—he had a couple—he had a couple episodes—I think it was the first one he did—it was, like, a three-hour podcast—and it really inspired me—genuinely inspired me—and I was, like, he is so interesting—and granted, I got what I needed from the podcast—like, I didn’t—I didn’t need him to—I didn’t need any more insight from him—like, I got what I needed, but I was, like, he’d be a great person to know—reached out to him and said, hey, loved your podcast—like, this was great—I saw you lived in LA, and I was living in Chicago at the time—I said, hey, I’m gonna be in LA next Wednesday—I would love to take you to breakfast—and, you know, clear action—like, clear—hey, I was really inspired—I loved this—I would love to get together—I’d love to take you to breakfast if you’re around next Wednesday—I’m in town—he wrote me back, said, oh, that would be so great—like, you know, thank you so much for the kind words—like, you know, I’d love to—I was, like, all right, great—gotta book a plane ticket to go to LA now—next Wednesday—because you—
Andrew Namanny: Weren’t actually gonna be in LA.
Noah Berkson: I wasn’t gonna be in LA.
Andrew Namanny: You were bluffing.
Noah Berkson: Bluffing—yeah, but I think there’s so much power in saying you’re going to be in the area where somebody is that will make them say, oh, okay, well, I’ll—you know, if you’re gonna be here those dates—right—then I can get together with you—as opposed to, you live in the city I am—and then it’s easy to kind of, like, throw things off and be, like, ah—like, let’s do it in the future—and as opposed to, I’m going to be there this time—yeah.
Andrew Namanny: How’d you get his email—online?
Noah Berkson: Yeah—I mean, most people’s emails are online—you can find it—or—I mean, I try—I’ll try variations of people’s emails—sometimes just guess—but we have breakfast—have a great—you know, have a great conversation—really, really cool—and a couple years—and we keep in touch—right—couple years later—I’m in—I’m in Charlotte, North Carolina—I’m actually there—Cal has moved there, and I know that—and I messaged him and said, hey, I’m going to be in Charlotte—like, would love to get together—and he’s, like, yeah—he’s, like, let’s—let’s do dinner—like, let’s do dinner—I don’t know—one of the nights we were there—it was—I think it was the night before Thanksgiving—and we had—go have dinner and have a really nice time—have a great time—and he goes, what are you doing tomorrow for Thanksgiving—I was, like, oh, my girlfriend and I—we don’t have any plans—we’re just—we’re just kind of hanging out, taking it easy—he’s, like, oh—he’s, like, we’re having people over—like, you gotta come join us for Thanksgiving—okay, great—yeah—I figure you’re having a party—there’s probably a lot of people—we go there the next day, and it’s his family and us—and it was an amazing Thanksgiving—he has an incredible family—Cal’s incredible—like, it’s the funnest time—but you think—like, this relationship was made possible because I sent you a cold email, right—then flew across the country to have breakfast with you, and now I’m sitting in your home for a very intimate thing for Thanksgiving.
Andrew Namanny: You are a master at this, brother.
Noah Berkson: That’s amazing—that’s an amazing relationship—but that would never happen if not being proactive—being able to kind of put an ego aside and reach out to people—I mean, another great example is Jess, who I host the podcast and events with—another person who I listened to on a podcast—said, wow, she sounds really, really interesting—reach out to her—you know, cold—email her—say, hey—like, I know you live in—I know you live in LA—I’d love to—love to get together for—you know, coffee, dinner, whatever—let me know—like, let me know time and place—and she goes, yeah, follow up with me in—I don’t know—like, two months—and a lot of times when people say that, you’ll go, I’m never going to follow up with that person—right—like, you just forget, or you kind of take it as that person probably doesn’t want to hang out with me—right—so I put it on my calendar, and I’m, like, two months—yeah—to the day—like, get the calendar—hey—like, you mentioned—like, let’s get—you know, let’s get together—and then we get together—get along super well—now—you know, somebody that I host a podcast with and host events with—so I think there’s so much power in kind of curating the people in your life and not kind of letting—not just letting proximity be the thing that determines the people in your life and the network you have.
Andrew Namanny: Do you think it’s important to live in a major hub if you want to build a network?
Noah Berkson: I think when you’re young, proximity is everything because I think it’s being in the right rooms—and that comes with—like we were saying—being in the right—going to the right happy hours, the right networking events—all these things—those are happening in major hubs—and your probability when you’re going to those of meeting really interesting people is going to be much better in the hubs—I do think, though, there was a Chris Sacca who’s, like—so another Tim Ferriss episode—
Andrew Namanny: Another Tim Ferriss episode—2015—that changed my life.
Noah Berkson: Incredible guy—but something he said really resonated with me—which he was, like—he was being asked—he’s, like, is there anything you did early on in your career that really changed the trajectory of your career—and he’s, like, when I was in the prime of my career—living in San Francisco—all my work is in—all my work is in the Bay—all the companies I’m investing in are in the Bay—like, everything is there—he’s, like, I decided to move to Tahoe—like, you’re, like, well, why would you move out of the place where, like, everything is happening—he’s, like, because what I realized is when I was in that hub—right—based on now where I was in my career—he’s, like, I was going to—like, I’d get invited to dinners, and I’d go—just because I got invited—do I really want to be there—probably not—but, like, I got invited, so I don’t want to say no—I’m going to happy hours—I’m taking meetings all the time because people are just, like, hey, can you get coffee—and I’m, like, oh, yeah, I could get coffee—not—because that’s really what I should be focusing on—he’s, like, so we moved my family out to Tahoe, and we said, hey, we’re going to just focus on the people we really want to get to know, and we’re going to invite them to come to us—and so instead of, like, the coffee meeting that I’m doing or going to the dinner—I’m going to only be with people that I invite to come stay at my home for—like, a weekend or a week—and I’m going to get really quality time with them—I’m going to build really deep relationships—and I think now there’s so much value in that because also—like, you can meet somebody—you know, you can have coffee with somebody five times, or you can have them come to your—you know, come stay at your home for a weekend and go skiing and bond together—and that’s going to be a very different relationship—and it gives you the easy—like, it’s an easy way to say no—because I think there’s so much power in saying no—but it’s—it also comes at—like, it comes at an expense.
Andrew Namanny: It’s real—yeah, that’s very real—I love Chris Sacca—that intentional approach—what was it about Jess that inspired you to reach out—you listen to a lot of podcasts, right—so what was it about her specifically?
Noah Berkson: You know, I think with Jess, it was—there’s something that actually she talked about that resonates in this answer—which is, like, what’s your X factor—like, what’s the thing—because I think once you’re—you have some level of success—it kind of becomes, like, success is table stakes—so when you’re—you know, when you’re introducing someone—it’s, like, oh, you both—I don’t know—started a business—run a business—sold a business—whatever it is—cool—that doesn’t really give me the—like, why I want to hang out with this person—and so with Jess, it was, like, oh, what are the other things that are really interesting—she’s, like, oh, I have my pilot’s license—I fly a plane—interesting—not tons of women who are flying their own plane—I host a Burning Man camp—I DJ in my spare time because I just think it’s fun to do that—and I’m doing all this cool stuff on the business side—but I think it’s, like, that X factor—that was, like, oh, this is a really interesting—like, immediately that’s a really interesting person—that’s a—if somebody email intros me and says, oh, this person is—this person is whatever—they’re successful in business—they do this—but they also do this and this and this—and I’m, like, oh, I want to—like, I want to meet that person—that’s an easy intro every time—yes—I think that’s also something that people should think about—and granted, I didn’t—I was not thinking about this when I was younger—but, like, what is your X factor—why are you interesting?
Andrew Namanny: We’re going to play a game, Noah—are you ready?
Noah Berkson: We’re going to play.
Andrew Namanny: This is the first time this game has been played on Permission to Shine—so buckle up, ladies and gentlemen.
Noah Berkson: I feel honored.
Andrew Namanny: Shine or decline—shine meaning yes, you would do it—decline meaning no, you would not do it.
Noah Berkson: Do you want context?
Andrew Namanny: I do.
Noah Berkson: Okay.
Andrew Namanny: Quickly though.
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: You can instantly become best friends with any one person in the world—dead or alive—but you have to completely cut off one of your current closest friends to make it happen—shine or decline?
Noah Berkson: I would decline—reason being, I think right now the friends in my life are so curated, and the friendships are so deep that there’s nobody that I—there’s nobody that would be worth it to cut the friends that I have out of my life.
Andrew Namanny: You’re offered a one-way ticket to Mars to help build the first human colony—you’ll be a legend, but there’s no guarantee you’ll ever come back.
Noah Berkson: I’m gonna stay—I have a really good life right now—I really enjoy my life—um, it’s—it’s—it’s going in a really good direction—so I think I’m—I think I’m staying—I’m going to decline that—you get—
Andrew Namanny: You’re invited to an ultra-exclusive retreat where every guest is a world-class entrepreneur, artist, or leader—but the catch is you have to introduce yourself with a five-minute stand-up comedy routine where you’re going to bomb.
Noah Berkson: I think I shine on that one because I think vulnerability is so underrated—like, the respect people have when someone is vulnerable—whether that’s, like, them making a mistake—doing something stupid—like, looking—you know, looking dumb in front of them—I think people really appreciate that when people are open and willing to do that—so I—I think you’d make a ton of friends that way.
Andrew Namanny: I love that—for people who want to meet interesting people—you said proximity matters—where should these people hang out?
Noah Berkson: I think—I think there’s two pieces of this—you want to—one, you want to hang out where the people that you want to meet are going to be hanging out—I think that a lot of times people use—they go, oh, I want to go to these big conferences or networking events because that’s where I’m going to meet these people—I think that’s completely wrong—I think your probability in these large gatherings of actually meeting anyone that is—meeting the people that you want to meet—there is very little—and people’s attention is not on you—people’s attention is on a million things—and so it’s really hard to get that attention and build a relationship—I think where the future is heading is towards much smaller, more intimate gatherings where you’re able to actually go deep with people and really connect and spend time—and so I’d look at, like, what are some—what are groups that are doing very small events—dinners where you have a very small and select group of people—but steer away from the large-scale events and really go towards the small, curated, invite-only.
Andrew Namanny: I love that—you’re in YPO, correct?
Noah Berkson: Yeah.
Andrew Namanny: How’s that been, and what is it—explain that if people don’t know what it is.
Noah Berkson: YPO is Young Presidents’ Organization—it’s for CEOs of companies—it’s—you kind of think of it like therapy for—therapy for entrepreneurs and CEOs where you—it’s a—it’s a global network—I think there’s probably—I don’t know—30,000 people that are in it around the globe—in every country—but it’s—it’s a group that binds you together with all these people you meet with—you have what’s called a forum—you meet once a month—generally, there’s eight of you in a forum, and you go through all the personal and business challenges in a place where there’s no worry of repercussion—everything that’s talked about stays there—never leaves—and you’re able to have this brutal honesty that frankly, before most people join YPO, they’ve never been this honest in their entire life—it’s a place where they do this thing called the 5%, and you need to do your 5%—which is the 5%—like, the thing that’s so deep down that you don’t talk about—you don’t talk about it to your best friend—you don’t talk about it to your spouse or wife or husband—significant other—you don’t talk about this anywhere—but you’re going to bring it here, and you’re going to have all of these other people that have probably similar experiences—very diverse groups—but are going to have similar experiences—are going to be able to give you experience shares—like, I can’t tell you how—how impactful this has been on my life and career.
Andrew Namanny: It’s got to be the most highly curated group of people that I’ve seen in a group—so kudos to you for being a part of it.
Noah Berkson: It’s a great—yeah—I mean, it’s an—it’s an incredible network—well, I think one of the most powerful things of it is just that you can reach out to anybody in YPO, and there’s just an—there’s a rule—actually, I was going to say it’s an unwritten rule—it actually is a rule—that they will get back to you within 24 hours—so I could write anyone—could be CEO of a public company—could be—you know, founder—some huge business—whatever it is—they’ll get back to me—and I think there’s just—that’s really nice to have because now it’s, like, anyone you want to meet, you can meet them.
Andrew Namanny: You have access, right?
Noah Berkson: You have access—and I think access is everything.
Andrew Namanny: Noah, thank you for being here—thanks for sharing your knowledge on how to make cool friends—I think you’re such an example of giving more than you take, which I think is such an important principle to live by—and I really appreciate you stopping by the studio to share your knowledge.
Noah Berkson: I appreciate—Andrew—this was awesome.
Andrew Namanny: Yeah, man—everyone go check out Dose of Greatness—your podcast with Jess Ma—and I can’t speak highly enough about Outcove Valley—getting to hang with 65 of the most incredible entrepreneurs in Park City just a few weeks ago—it blew my mind, man—so highly recommend that to anybody who gets a chance to go—do not hesitate.
Noah Berkson: We were so happy to have you there—I think we’re going to do the next one—it’s looking like October 2nd to 5th in Hawaii.
Andrew Namanny: Amazing—all right, man, we’ll see you there, brother.
Noah Berkson: That’s it.
Andrew Namanny: Thank you so much for tuning in to Permission to Shine—the podcast dedicated to sharing the most humble, inspiring stories that I know you will love—again, this is Andrew Namanny—I appreciate you tuning in as always—please, please reach out—please follow on Instagram, on YouTube, on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple—leave us your thoughts—let us know who you want as a future guest or what your takeaways are from this conversation—we’ll talk to you soon—have a great, great week.