Creators, Pokemon, Barrys and Billions with Lucy Guo

Lucy Guo joins me and Jess Mah to share her entrepreneurial journey from co-founding Scale AI to Passes.com and everything in between.

Here’s a summary of what we talked about.

• Lucy’s Early Hustle & Entrepreneurial Spirit: Even as a kindergartener, Lucy was finding ways to make money—selling Pokémon cards, colored pencils, and eventually building a virtual pet site with free labor from artists she recruited off DeviantArt. That scrappy, creative hustle never left her.
• Her Unconventional Path & the Thiel Fellowship: Lucy dropped out of college after receiving the Thiel Fellowship, defying her strict parents’ expectations. They were devastated at first, even emailing her obsessively to convince her to return to school—emails that eventually got flagged as spam by Gmail.
• The Real Origin of Scale AI: Before building Scale AI, Lucy and her cofounder tested wild ideas—like “ClassPass for clubbing” and a homemade food delivery platform that ran into legal issues. Eventually, they pivoted to data labeling for AI, with lidar labeling as their breakout innovation. She built the first version of what became Scale’s core in just a weekend.
• Building Passes & Dominating the Creator Econom: Now, she’s focused on Passes, a monetization platform for creators, which she started without a deck or name—just by texting LPs. It’s grown fast, is cash-flow positive, and serves creators earning six figures monthly. She emphasizes emotional retention over product retention when working with talent.
• Raw, Real & Unfiltered: Lucy is unapologetically herself—frugal despite wealth, obsessed with Barry’s Bootcamp, loves spicy food, and doesn’t shy from controversial takes. She shares openly about everything from dating and being targeted by escorts, to being robbed, to why she wears cheap clothes now despite owning a $20K cat.
• And many more.

Video

Watch the full conversation on YouTube here.

Or watch below:

Full Transcript

Lucy Guo: One day in San Francisco, I was riding an electric longboard and I broke my jaw. So I couldn’t eat for, like, two months because I somehow convinced people to work for me for free. So it’s always, like, been in me, I think, because I had this, like, idea of, like, businesses and how to make money. I enjoyed making them mad, though. But I got the Thiel Fellowship, right? And I was like, okay, well, like, if I accept this, then, like, you guys are gonna get very mad at me. Haha. Let’s do it. I think when I started working at Snapchat again is when they were like, oh, okay, cool. Like, you’re successful.

Noah Berkson: Lucy, welcome to the pod. We’re so excited to have you. Could you give a really quick tell people who you are?

Lucy Guo: Cool. Hi, everyone. I’m Lucy, founder, entrepreneur, investor. I’m most known for doing a lot of Barry’s Bootcamp, though. Pretty much I’ve been in tech my entire life. And yeah, I think that’s a good TLDR.

Noah Berkson: You’re known for doing Barry’s every morning, like a ritual. You do double Barry’s?

Lucy Guo: Yep. I got the 6:15 and 7.

Noah Berkson: 25 AM every single day?

Lucy Guo: Yes.

Jess Mah: Wow.

Lucy Guo: I will say, like, sometimes Saturdays, I give myself a rest break, like a rest day. But, like, you can pretty much count on me there, like, Monday through Fridays.

Noah Berkson: Where does this come from?

Lucy Guo: Oh, it’s actually kind of funny. So one day in San Francisco, I was riding an electric longboard and I broke my jaw. So I couldn’t eat for, like, two months. Right. So I decided that because I couldn’t socialize or eat, it was my time to finally get hot and get abs. So I basically signed up for ClassPass, started doing Barry’s, and realized it was my favorite workout. So I got, like, you know, the monthly membership, and then, like, the number of Barry’s classes I was doing was increasing. And then by the time my jaw was healed, I was just addicted. So it’s pretty much continued since then.

Noah Berkson: And you can operate. It seems like you are a late. You’re, like, a night owl of a person. You’re able to be out late and then go to Barry’s and still be functional every day and be as high energy as you are.

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would say, like, I prefer to get five to seven hours of sleep. Like, if I have to get three to four, I will get three to four. And, like, I believe in discipline and that, like, once you, you know, break a habit, you make excuses. Right. So for a long time, actually, in Miami, I was only doing one Barry’s a day because in my head I was like, okay, it’s okay to do one Barry’s a day because I want to get to the office earlier. And I basically had this free car service that started at 8 AM, so, like, the earliest Barry’s I could do is eight. So yeah, I made an excuse. I did it. And it took me a little bit to, like, get back into my two a day. So I don’t really want to, like, fall back in there. So no matter how tired I am, I just, like, force myself to do it so I don’t make excuses to skip it in the future.

Jess Mah: Stepping back, you’ve been super successful as an entrepreneur and as an investor. Where did you, where did this all come from? Like, were you high-performing when you were a kid growing up, or were you a slacker?

Lucy Guo: I would say it probably comes from, like, Asian culture. My parents always emphasized having money or making money and saving money.

Jess Mah: So were they poor, rich?

Lucy Guo: I would call them middle class, but acted like they were dirt broke. But we were definitely, like, I would say, like, middle class. So, like, in kindergarten even, I was figuring out ways to make money from, like, selling Pokémon cards, trading them up, selling colored pencils, etc. I got sent to the principal’s office a bunch of times.

Jess Mah: What’s wrong with that?

Lucy Guo: Also, what’s wrong with that? Because I guess I wasn’t allowed to, like, do that. And I wasn’t, you know, like, I was just bored in school. And this kind of continued, like, throughout elementary school, high school, etc. Like, in elementary school, I have no idea how, but I convinced someone, like, to do free engineering and free design work for me. So I created my own virtual pet site, which is, like, honestly kind of sick because I somehow convinced people to work for me for free. So it’s always, like, been in me, I think, because I had this, like, idea of, like, businesses and how to make money.

Jess Mah: That’s.

Noah Berkson: What is this virtual pet site?

Lucy Guo: I don’t even remember what it’s called. I think I went through two different names. Like, one of them was, like, SVYT. I, like, recruited artists off of DeviantArt, and I don’t even know.

Jess Mah: Like a virtual Tamagotchi thing.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. And then I went through a different name change. I don’t remember. But I remember I had found the artwork on DeviantArt one day, like, randomly. And I have no idea how I got them for free.

Jess Mah: But you started really young, which is, I think, the only way you see world-class entrepreneurs start. Like, even in my case, I was selling traced drawings on a playground when I was in second grade. Got in lots of trouble for that. And, like, I had one kid pay me 100 bucks for something I traced in, like, you know.

Lucy Guo: Oh, that’s kind of amazing.

Jess Mah: Yeah, that was great.

Noah Berkson: But did you get access to a computer super young?

Lucy Guo: I did. I don’t remember what age I got access to a computer, but it was pretty young. Like, I would say, like, probably preschool, kindergarten era. Yeah, I would go to the library and just, like, hang out on the computers too.

Jess Mah: But why, why did we end up as entrepreneurs and investors when so many of our Asian peers with the strict Asian parenting, they ended up in kind of boring, mediocre jobs?

Lucy Guo: Well, I think that I don’t know if I call those jobs boring.

Jess Mah: Not to be an asshole, but, like.

Lucy Guo: But, like, it’s exciting. Yes, I would say that. I would. We’re probably more risk-oriented because, like, you see these Asian parents, like, the stereotype is you need to be a doctor, you need to be an engineer, you need to be a lawyer. And these three things are, like, you know, high-income jobs that are very stable. And most kids listen to their parents, and they end up going to these different paths in life. My parents basically disowned me when I became an entrepreneur.

Jess Mah: Oh, wow.

Noah Berkson: Tell us about that.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, they just got really mad. I enjoy making them mad, though. But I got the Thiel Fellowship, right? And I was like, okay, well, if I accept this, then you guys are gonna get very mad at me. Haha. Let’s do it. So I ended up taking the Thiel Fellowship, and they were just extremely upset. And I get it. ‘Cause, you know, education gave them everything that they have in life. So for them, it was almost like me saying, like, I don’t, I don’t respect you. I’m throwing away everything you gave up and immigrated from China to America to give me to, like, be a dumb kid. Right?

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: So that’s when they stopped talking to me for a while.

Jess Mah: And, like, for years you guys stopped.

Lucy Guo: I think when I started working at Snapchat again is when they were like, oh, okay, cool, like, you’re successful. Because I was getting, like, paid pretty.

Jess Mah: Generously because they were worried that you’d be, like, a homeless bum and disappoint the family.

Lucy Guo: But they were still reaching out to me. Like, it turned out my dad was emailing me constantly to the point where Gmail was marking it as spam. So I later discovered it because it was pretty much, like, you know, there’s, like, all caps, “GO BACK TO SCHOOL.” Like, “YOU’RE GOING TO BE A FAILURE. I’M GOING TO BE HOMELESS.” And, you know, Google, like, Gmail thought they were spam emails. So they were still reaching out to me, like, trying to convince me and, like, put me back on, like, what they thought was the right way.

Jess Mah: I mean, they really cared about you.

Lucy Guo: Yes, exactly.

Jess Mah: This is all just real love.

Lucy Guo: Exactly.

Jess Mah: Comes out in a weird way.

Lucy Guo: Yes. It was their way of showing love.

Noah Berkson: Did the Thiel Fellowship not have somebody that is, like, the person that talks to people’s parents? Because I assume this situation happens all the time with people that accept that, and it’s, like, kind of gives them some comfort around what their child is doing. Like, they’re dropping out to go do this, or they’re leaving to go do this.

Lucy Guo: I would say the Thiel Fellowship probably had people that were willing to do that. I don’t think my parents would have had a conversation with them, though.

Noah Berkson: Wow.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Wow. What was that fellowship like?

Lucy Guo: I would say the pro of it was just that you got money, like, with no strings attached. Right. Like, you had ultimate freedom, and you had really smart peers around you. I would say, like, the support system, at least for me, was more so the peers. I got to meet some of the most incredible people that I still know today. Right. But it was very independent, I would say.

Noah Berkson: Was there an idea you came into it with?

Lucy Guo: I did not really come into it with a real idea. I used, like, a hackathon project that I had done the week before when I submitted my application.

Noah Berkson: Was that something you continued to work on?

Lucy Guo: No. What I ended up doing for the Thiel Fellowship was, like, a two-sided marketplace where people would, like, make food, like, homemade food, and deliver it, which ended up, like, people are making good money, $100 an hour, you know, like, there was a sorority that, like, launched with it and made $5,000 in the first day, but turns out it’s actually really illegal to do this. Like, food safety issues. So. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Did that end up getting shut down? You just stopped doing it. What was the ending of that?

Lucy Guo: I stopped doing it. I think that there was just a lack of passion for the project along with the fact that, like, we had come across the food safety issues, and we’re, like, at that point in time, you need, like, a centralized food kitchen to be able to do something like that. I think laws have recently, like, changed over COVID. So, yeah, I just ended up going to take a normal job for a few years.

Noah Berkson: What was that? I mean, what was that like going from kind of building your own thing, doing your own thing, to now going into, I assume, a much more structured and defined role?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, I think I got to learn a lot in these structured roles because I got to work with people that have had several more years of experience. So I ended up going to Quora and then Snap. And I also got a feel for, like, just the different cultures because they are, like, they could not be more opposites. And I learned what I liked in each culture and how I would imagine I would like the values I would have for my own companies in the future. So overall, I would say good experience.

Noah Berkson: Were you thinking like that at those companies? Were you thinking, like, how do I take away some of these values or the culture for my own thing? Was that in your mind, like, hey, I’m gonna go do my own thing again, but this is just a learning experience, or how were you viewing it?

Lucy Guo: I was definitely viewing it as a learning experience, especially ’cause, like, I wanted to actually ship a project product and see, like, the long-term impact, which I actually got to do some really cool things at Quora. I was running a lot of A/B tests, and these A/B tests were, like, that’s where I learned that, like, by changing, like, one word, you could increase, like, conversion by 30% on signups. Like, I was seeing pretty crazy numbers based off these A/B tests I was running, which is really cool. I moved to Snap, and, like, I remember I mentioned the word A/B test, and it was, like, a banned word basically. They’re like, don’t mention the word A/B test here again. And I was like, super different. I think that they care more about things as a whole versus, like, okay, cool. Everything is a formula, and you fix each little part, and then it solves the product. Right. And it was a totally different way of thinking. But it was really fun seeing just, like, I think how much of a visionary Evan was. That was something that really surprised me versus I think that Quora the team was much more, like, mathematical and calculated versus Snap is very visionary, creative, etc.

Jess Mah: It shows that different cultures could work, and they’re successful in different ways.

Lucy Guo: Exactly, yeah.

Noah Berkson: And you went to Quora originally because you were an avid Quora user.

Lucy Guo: Yep, I was an avid Quora user. I was, like, basically asking questions that a VC would ask, which is, like, hey, what’s your monthly active users? Daily active users, like, month-over-month growth, retention, etc. At some point, they got very annoyed. I do think that they mixed up monthly active users with page hits when they gave me the number, but that’s a whole other story.

Noah Berkson: And then at Quora, you meet your co-founder, your future co-founder for Scale AI. How did you guys build a relationship?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, we would just eat lunch together. He was, you know, another young kid that was working full-time. So it was just very natural. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Was that a pretty fun place to work? Was it a lot of younger people? Like, was the engineering team pretty young?

Lucy Guo: I would say. I don’t really remember if the engineering team was young per se, but I would say it was very talented. Like, it was, like, where some of the best engineers in the Valley went? I think there are a few companies that were just known to have good engineers. Like, Quora was one of them. Dropbox, Palantir, etc. And I think that I ended up choosing Quora partially because I used the product, but partially because the engineering was just so highly respected there.

Noah Berkson: And at what point do you go, hey, we’re going to go start a new company? Tell us about that. What was that like?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I was at Snap, he was at MIT, and we had always thought about building a company together. I think it was literally over winter break we started working on side projects because I was just getting the itch again to start something. And YC apps were coming up, I think, the following year. And then, yeah, just kind of happened.

Noah Berkson: What was, what was the original premise for the business?

Lucy Guo: I mean, the first thing we built was ClassPass for clubbing. Very dumb idea.

Jess Mah: That was the first business ClassPass for what?

Lucy Guo: ClassPass for clubbing. Then we immediately pivoted.

Noah Berkson: What was. Yeah, back up. What was the idea? Like, give us the. What were you thinking at the time?

Lucy Guo: In our heads, I was like, okay, cool, you’ll pay this monthly membership fee of, like, let’s call it $40 a month. And then we could just get promoters to bring you to clubs for free. So it’s no cost for us. And there’s so many promoters and, like, you know, there are clubs that are offering free drinks to get people through the doors, and we can make it seem like this cool thing, but, like, not well-networked people wouldn’t know about it. But then we noticed that the only people that were signing up were, like, VCs. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: And you’re in San Francisco at the time, which is not. You were in LA at that time. Okay, I was gonna say San Francisco is not a very club-heavy place to be in.

Lucy Guo: Like, I’ve never, like, I never really been to a club. And then I moved to LA, and I saw, like, how the, like, promoter scene was moving, etc., and I was like, oh, like, I could totally make money off of this. Very, like, I didn’t realize how small of a market, like, hospitality was really. But I think it’s, like, a decent lifestyle business. Like, you see what’s a table service called? There’s a table service app. I forget what it’s called, but I.

Noah Berkson: Think I know, I know what you’re talking about.

Lucy Guo: It’s a bottle service app. Like, it does okay. Like, it’s, like, very much so lifestyle business, but, like, it’s a pretty good lifestyle business.

Noah Berkson: And, and you call your parents, and you’re like, I’m quitting my job. And they say, what are you gonna go do? And you’re like, I’m starting an app. And they’re like, what kind of app? It’s, like, to help people get into.

Jess Mah: Nightclubs, Asian parents’ dream come true.

Lucy Guo: So they got very, very mad when I quit Snap. I was like, hey, I’m gonna go to Y Combinator. And then they were just like, hey, don’t you realize that, like, 99.9% of startups fail? Like, you’re going to fail, you’re gonna ruin your life. And they’re like, if you raise $5 million, maybe I would understand why you were leaving Snap. But the, like, risk-benefit analysis doesn’t make sense here. And then, you know, after the Series A, and we raised basically 5 million, they’re like, wow, we’re so proud of you.

Jess Mah: Oh my God. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Wait, and then where does that happen? Because, okay, so you start this business that doesn’t, and you raise 5 million for that business.

Lucy Guo: Oh no, we did not. Then we pivot into this business called Ava, which is, like, we’re going to help you find the best healthcare professionals for, like, the service that you need. The reason why this is just never going to work is because it’s, like, a one-off use case, especially for young people, and old people aren’t going to be using the app, right? So, like, we very quickly realized this. But this is where we raised, we got into YC with, and then raised, like, a small pre-seed round. Granted, they wanted, like, a million dollars. They wanted to give us a million dollars. We said no. So ended up doing a small pre-seed round and then going to YC. And in YC, I remember we asked our YC partners, how many appointments do we have to book, and how much revenue do we have to generate to be a top YC company? And they told us. And, like, within two weeks, they’re like, we’re not going to hit these numbers.

Jess Mah: They’re just like, who’s your YC partner?

Lucy Guo: There’s no path there. It was Jared and Aaron.

Noah Berkson: Okay, so you have this. You realize that, hey, the market isn’t going to be big enough for this. This, or we’re not going to be able to get the user base we need to make that happen. And now you’re, okay. Now we got to pivot again. Yeah.

Lucy Guo: So we realized we had to pivot again. And then basically we were calling doctors all the time, and we were like, hey, we wish there was a way to call doctors over the code. Right. And then our roommate was like, oh, so you mean, like, an API for humans? And then we’re like, I’ve built enough viral apps at this point. I knew that would go viral. So we kind of look at them, and they’re like. We’re like, do you want this idea? And they’re like, no, you can have it. So we ended up doing an API for humans. And there’s so many stories out there on, like, how the founding. But this is actually the real founding story. So then, you know, did that, launched on Product Hunt. And then a bunch of VCs reached out afterwards because, like, you know, I think VCs were looking at Mechanical Turk and have always thought that there could be a better Mechanical Turk. And Crowdflower had obviously existed, and Crowdflower was a pretty large business at that point in time. So we had a bunch of VCs reach out. But then around, like, the next week, I had built a Pokémon Go map that hit, like, 5 million users in a week. So. So our YC partners actually wanted us to pivot into that, and they’re like, hey, Scale isn’t going to work out. You should do this Pokémon Go map instead. Look at the traction; you could go into gaming, etc. And then we had told them a little bit later, oh, we actually got a Series A term sheet. And suddenly they were like, oh, yes, go and Scale.

Jess Mah: The advice in YC is very weird like that. I mean, to be fair, though.

Lucy Guo: But I get it. Excel investing increases your chances of success by, like, a good amount.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: To back up, just to understand both these. So you want to build this how? Like, what’s the. Give us the use case for Ava for. For this Scale initial model.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. So we actually thought we were going to take over BPOs and phone calling specifically because, like, phone calling is such a big thing with BPO companies. And, like, that was a use case that we needed. Right.

Noah Berkson: Outwards for doctors to patients or.

Lucy Guo: Oh, no, just, like, if anyone needed to, like, you know, reach, like, have a human do an outbound call.

Noah Berkson: Okay, got it, got it.

Lucy Guo: Yep. And then eventually just, like, you know, really dove into self-driving cars because that ended up being one of our first customers. And then our lead investor actually was like, you know, you can just use AI, right? Like, you have an API, you have structured data. And we’re like, oh, good point. And then we were also just, like, having trouble quality controlling phone calls. We were starting to get, like, API calls where people were, like, having us call to, like, sell bad stocks and scam people, essentially. So we’re like, okay, cool, like, we don’t want to do this. Like, let’s do something that we can quality control. And that ended up being the start of Scale. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: So you have these. Did you. All those investors that invest in this initial idea, did that all roll over? Like, first, like, the people that invested in this nightclub, like, clubbing for ClassPass business that are, like, I invest in this business, and now that has become Scale AI. And that is probably one of the best investments I’ve ever made in my life.

Lucy Guo: So we’ve actually only had one investor in our pre-seed. The rest all came after Excel put in my.

Noah Berkson: Okay, wow. And this Pokémon map.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: You were just, you’re, like, I’m doing a startup; that’s not hard enough. The startup’s not really going the way I want, but, like, I also need to go build this Pokémon map.

Lucy Guo: I knew it would only take a weekend. And then another friend and I were like, you know, we saw the trends of Pokémon Go. So this was actually not with Alex, but with my friend Jared. And we were just like, okay, cool, like, let’s do this. Like, Pokémon Go map. Let’s build it over a weekend. And then it became one of the most popular ones. It was, like, featured on pretty much every single website. It was really cool because, like, you could be, like, he was in a wedding in, like, the middle of nowhere in the United States, like, Middle America. He’s like, dude, I see people on their phones looking at a Pokémon Go map. Which is a cool feeling to have. Actually, part of the reason we probably didn’t pivot into that is also because we couldn’t figure out the equity splits between everyone because we were two founders. Now we’re three founders if we do the Pokémon Go map, etc.

Noah Berkson: That’s hard. What’d you do with that? What’d you do with that?

Lucy Guo: Oh, we did nothing. It just came and it died. Because then we got the Series A for Scale, and then decided to focus on that.

Noah Berkson: Okay. And the self-driving, like, Cruise becomes kind of your first eye-opening to, hey, this, like, data labeling is a big business, and we can, we can completely pivot our business towards this.

Lucy Guo: Yep.

Noah Berkson: But there’s also, there’s, like, what, two or three companies, autonomous vehicle companies at that point. So, like, you need to get all of them as customers first, or are you, like, hey, we can take this, and now we’ll go into other industries.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. So we, you know, we basically tackled one by one. But I would say, like, what really helped our trajectory was LIDAR labeling. And we had hired this incredible engineer who was able to build our LIDAR labeling tool in three days. And this LIDAR labeling tool is better than the LIDAR labeling tools that, like, pretty much every self-driving car company was using on their own. So they’re like, oh, great, you’ll label data more accurately, and you have this better LIDAR labeling tool. Like, yes, please. So that was really when we were, like, winning customers without, like, it was, like, a one-call sale.

Jess Mah: How did Cruise come in as the first one?

Lucy Guo: We just mass-emailed everyone that was, you know, YC founder.

Jess Mah: Okay. Yeah. That’s kind of the YC way. They tell us to just sell it to each other, and it’s, it’s great. It’s the mafia, you know.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: I mean, that’s how I got all my first customers.

Lucy Guo: I know. I think that, like, if I were to do a B2B SaaS business, like, I want to go to YC. Right.

Jess Mah: Because you just get that network; it’s, like, instant credibility. Like, I put Airbnb, I put Stripe, Pinterest as my, like, marquee customers. Put the logos on your website; it sells everyone else. It’s a really unfair advantage.

Noah Berkson: Who was your first customer?

Jess Mah: My first was actually Bill Clerico from WePay.

Noah Berkson: Okay.

Jess Mah: Yeah. But I mean, pretty much everyone you could think of, I got to sign up, all thanks to YC.

Noah Berkson: So. Okay, so now you. At what point do you start to see this business is going to take off? Like, where was that point in the business where you’re, like, inflection point was.

Lucy Guo: Really when we went into self-driving, and then we hired this guy Shrav, and he was just, like, an incredible marketer and seller. So we were just starting to close deals, like, left and right. And we very quickly grew as a brand that had the highest quality data.

Noah Berkson: And, like, what’s the trajectory of that business? Like that. Like, that first year, second year, third year. Like, how long did it take to get to, like, a meaningful revenue point?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would say year two, it was pretty meaningful, but, like, year three, four is when it was, you know, like, really blowing up.

Noah Berkson: What. What is that like? I mean, so you get to this point where I assume you’re just getting flooded with interest from investors. Everything’s really exciting. Like, very few people get that experience, right, to be in that place. Like, what was that like?

Lucy Guo: I mean, this sounds kind of crazy, but I feel like I’ve always been very lucky to, like, be in that place. Like, my whole thing is I won’t do a round unless it’s, like, preempted. Right. So it’s exciting, but it’s also, like, okay, cool.

Noah Berkson: But it wasn’t, like, that wasn’t a huge motivator at the time. Like, wow, we’re just getting so much interest. People are putting really high values on the company. That wasn’t a big driver for you?

Lucy Guo: I don’t think so, no.

Jess Mah: Yeah. Well, I’m curious, since you’ve kind of ridden that high for the past few years, what is your motivation now? My read on you is that you’re just. Just kind of, like, a curious geek. You like to play with things; you’re a tinkerer; you like to explore. But I don’t know. How else would you describe your motivations beyond that?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, I think that I really want to build a second unicorn. Because when you look at the best founders in the world, like, I think building your first, like, a lot of it is luck. But the best founders, they do have a skill, right? Like, some people build, like, three unicorns, which is just, like. It’s a little insane. But it would be cool to be able to, like, figure out how to repeat it. And I also think consumer is one of the hardest challenges out there. So it’s something that I’m personally really interested in. And I get to work with my friends, and I become friends with a lot of creators that we’re working with right now. So it’s just fun.

Jess Mah: How many years did you take off between Scale and what you’re doing now? And then we’ll talk about what you’re doing now.

Lucy Guo: I don’t really think I took off that much time because I immediately went into venture after. So I started Backend Capital and HF0 with Dave, and HF0 is still running. It’s a program in San Francisco that backs second-time founders, essentially. That wasn’t the original thesis. The original thesis was, like, we’re just gonna back the best engineers. But, like, I think second-time founders generally, like, you learn more from what you did right than what you do wrong. Although you do learn from what you do wrong, right. So I think that there’s just, like, a higher hit rate with second-time founders. Data might show otherwise. I actually don’t know because, like, I.

Jess Mah: Don’t know; the data does show that it is better.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I’ve seen totally different. Like, I’ve seen so many studies where, like, some data shows it’s not, some data shows it is. So yeah.

Noah Berkson: Have you always liked, is investing energizing for you?

Lucy Guo: I would say investing is definitely fun. It’s definitely easier. I like that I got to do a lot of breadth versus depth. So learn about different industries. And I think it’s very similar to founding a company in the sense that you need to pick the best people. So as an investor, I really look for who’s smarter than me and who’s a better engineer than me. And those are people that I want to back, especially when I’m going so early-stage. And I do the same with my own company. I think the hardest roles for me to interview for are the non-technical roles because I just really don’t know what a good finance person looks like. For example, I have other people interview my finance people.

Noah Berkson: Was that transition when you decided you were going to leave Scale? Was that transition hard? I’d imagine I’m thinking about this. My identity is always so tied to businesses in those moments when you end up saying, hey, I’m going to leave; it’s like I feel like I’m kind of leaving my identity behind. And a lot of times then I think, like, I need to do something immediately to, like, build a new identity because otherwise it’s, like, there’s a gap. Like, I don’t. I’m, like, a chicken with its head cut off. Kind of, like, I don’t really have one. Was there, like, what was that? What was that process like?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I would say for, like, the months leading up, I was already talking to Jared, and we were like, okay, cool, like, we’re gonna build a company together. So quite literally the next day, like, we were building a company together, and then there were just a lot of disagreements, which is why, like, the months leading up, I was already in talks with Jared. It ended up just, like, I realized I was, like, kind of burnt out. So I got him his job back at Stripe, and he’s now crushing it with his company. And I invested, obviously, because I believe in him. And yeah, took a little bit of a break, then went into venture.

Noah Berkson: And you had a little bit of fun between.

Lucy Guo: Yes, I went traveling for, I want to say, a few months.

Noah Berkson: For a few months. We want to hear about that. I was saying, I think when I talked to you the other day, I was like, from the outside, what I would see, like, you first came on my radar, probably, like, with Scale. But then afterwards where I was like, there’s, like, a news article, there’s something always coming up about you, and you were, like, very openly, like, very openly, like, buying really, like, buying a cool place or, like, doing really lavish stuff. Like, but you would, you told me that you’re like, hey, I think there’s a big misconception about me and that, like, I’m not really that person.

Lucy Guo: Yes. I would say, like, right after, I was extremely frugal. So what I had done was I moved to Vegas, and I bought this apartment for $70,000, and it was, like, you know, a few Thiel fellows, and then a bunch of other people; we were, like, well, let’s make a community in Vegas in these, like, kind of janky 70K apartments. And we were, like, travel hacking. So what we would do is, like, you know, we would eat at the airport lounge, for example. So it was, like, a five-minute drive, like, very quick skateboard ride to the airport, and we would buy, like, a cancelable flight, like, a Southwest flight, get in security, cancel it, and eat at the AMEX lounge for free. We also did a lot of travel hacking that allowed us to fly for free, first class internationally, amongst other things. And I’m not going to say how we did that.

Jess Mah: So you’re doing this after Scale. You’ve already made a fortune, and yet you’re still flying for free through travel hacking on Southwest.

Lucy Guo: Well, I would say I’ve had a fortune. Like, I did a small, like, secondary of the Series B. But, like, for me, it’s more important to grow my money versus, you know, live off of it. Yeah, because it was, like, a seven-figure secondary. So I was like, okay, cool, like.

Jess Mah: Let me decide how much secondary to do. What’s the cause? I always think about this as a founder. I meet so many people who built their businesses for so long, and they have eight-figure, nine-figure opportunities to take money off the table, and they choose not to. And I really respect those people, actually.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I took way too much off the table.

Jess Mah: You took way too much.

Lucy Guo: I mean, for the valuation at the time, I do think I took too much. Nowadays, the way I think about it is just, like, is it going to change my life? Am I going to, like, you know, do something drastically different? If the answer is no, I don’t really.

Jess Mah: So you decided before that, even with the secondary, you would barely touch it; you would let it grow.

Lucy Guo: Yes.

Jess Mah: And you would keep your lifestyle the same. Why. Why not spend it more lavishly? Because that’s what the newspapers like to think, apparently.

Lucy Guo: This.

Noah Berkson: Yeah. Is this. Is this a mis. Like, is this a misconception?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would say after I was able to, like, grow that money a bit, I definitely was like, okay, cool, I can buy stuff, right? But I think I’m, like. Like, after I bought everything that I, like, really wanted. And the whole mindset was actually, like, a total experimentation. It was, like, almost a social experiment for me because I started noticing, like, I had hung out with, like, very, I think, humble people for most of my life. And then during COVID, I met this one friend who was just, like, you know, driving Aston Martins every single day, like, different car every single day, was just, like, spending massive amounts of money on clothes, watches, etc. And, like, in my head, I was like, this is the most stupid thing ever, right? But I noticed how people treated him differently.

Jess Mah: In a bad way.

Lucy Guo: Oh, no, in a good way. People are so nice to him. Like, random strangers so nice to him. And this is, like. And I understood, like, this was, like, how LA kind of worked. Like, I have, like, you know, gone in front of a club, and they let, like, 10 girls in, and they stop me, and they’re like, you can’t go in because you’re, like, dressed like that. And I’m like, come on, bro. This is, like, you know, when I first moved from San Francisco, I’ve learned how I need to dress in LA, but I noticed just, like, how nice everyone was being from, like, you know.

Jess Mah: But also, people are trying to be friends because they think that it’s not.

Lucy Guo: Even just, like, friends. It’s, like, you know, like, maybe they think he’s gonna tip well, right? But then, like, you know, the waiters bring him, like, extra food or, like, pay extra attention to him. I was like, that’s all you need to do for people to just, like, literally bend over for you. Wear nice clothes. So I went on a little shopping spree, and I was like, let me get some jewelry and some nice clothes, and let’s see what happens.

Jess Mah: You have an amazing Pikachu backpack, I noticed.

Lucy Guo: Oh, yeah.

Jess Mah: Which I really, really like.

Lucy Guo: No, it’s funny because, like, now everything I wear is so cheap. Like, this is, like, you know, from Zara. My pants are from Shein, and, like, I love Shein. I know. I love Shein.

Jess Mah: So cheap.

Lucy Guo: It’s the best. All my pants are from Shein now. Yeah. And I don’t wear any of my jewelry anymore. Like, it’s all in my safe.

Jess Mah: So you kind of went through the stuff.

Lucy Guo: I went through that thing, and then.

Jess Mah: You came out of it.

Lucy Guo: But I think I, like, I’m lucky to be able to do that now. I think that I noticed how much nicer people were being to me. I was getting invited to everywhere, etc., because people want to be friends with the rich person. But now that everyone knows who I am, or I’ve made that network, I’m so over it. So now I just wear Shein again.

Noah Berkson: What were the most outrageous things you bought? If you could think of two or three things, you’re like, that was outrageous.

Lucy Guo: I mean, I think watches are, in general, good investments. Like, I bought a very expensive watch.

Jess Mah: But, like, Noah’s a big watch guy.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I think if I, like, resold it on Sotheby’s, I could get, like, 10x what I paid for it. Wow.

Jess Mah: So, like, wow, that’s awesome. It’s, like, better than crypto investing.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: I’m like.

Lucy Guo: It was, like, ridiculous, but, like, was it ridiculous? I don’t know. That’s awesome. Then it would probably be my cat.

Noah Berkson: How much did you spend on a cat?

Lucy Guo: 20K.

Noah Berkson: You spent $20,000 on a cat? What type of cat is this?

Lucy Guo: F1 Savannah.

Jess Mah: That’s awesome.

Noah Berkson: Okay, I need to see a photo of this after this. Yeah. Can you get 10 times as much for the cat, too, if you sell it?

Jess Mah: All right. Bad ROI.

Lucy Guo: Bad ROI. Declining. And then what is something else dumb that I’ve spent on? I don’t really know. It’d have to just probably be, like, a random jacket or something that I bought that I thought looked cool, and I saw a price tag.

Jess Mah: You’re pretty frugal then.

Noah Berkson: Actually, it sounds like you bought what looks like a really sick place in Miami.

Lucy Guo: Yes. I’m finally renting it out, though. I think the tenants started yesterday, so. Thank God.

Noah Berkson: It’s interesting. I was just actually reading about this other guy, Neil Patel, who’s, like, this. He’s, like, a marketer. He actually lives in LA, I think.

Jess Mah: Oh, yeah, I know Neil.

Noah Berkson: But he was talking about. He did this experiment where he was, like, he owns, like, a marketing agency, and he’s been very successful doing it. But he’s, like, I wanted to see, would people basically, could I charge more money if I dressed nicer with clients? Like, if I basically, like, projected that I was really successful, would people then, like, could I make more money doing it? He’s, like, so I went and just bought, like, all the, like, Louis Vuitton shoes and the, like, Dior, all this shit. And he’s, like, I actually was. It was, like, way more, like. He’s, like, people just thought I was so much more successful. So, like, more clients would sign with me; they’d spend more money with me, which was really interesting.

Lucy Guo: Oh, totally true. Yeah. I mean, like, this is what they do in Miami. They, like, you know, rent an Airbnb for a day. Like, rent a car and talk about, like, how you should buy their course so they make tons of money, which is crazy.

Jess Mah: But all the time where they just speak, say, oh, this is my Ferrari. This is my Lamborghini. This is my jet. And it’s, like, just borrowed for a few hours.

Lucy Guo: Yep. But it does increase their sales like that. This is how, like, Miami be successful, like me.

Jess Mah: And look at what I’ve got. Even though it’s B.S. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: What. What’d you think of Miami? You’re not there anymore.

Lucy Guo: I really love Miami, but that’s because I got to meet, like, people that were, like, born and raised in Miami. So you. I met, like, all my friends were, like, you know, Latin, Venezuelan, Brazilian, Colombian, etc. Like, true Miami people. And they weren’t in the, like, I would say, like, the fakeness of Miami, which was, you know, like, people go there to, like, really show off their wealth through the bottle service, etc. That just wasn’t them. Like, you know, they grew up in, like, the middle of Miami. I don’t even know the neighborhoods, but, you know, like, not as, like, crazy. They didn’t grow up in Miami, Miami, the city. And then they just went to college. University of Miami stayed there. But I think that, like, real, like.

Jess Mah: Authentic friendships, it sounds like.

Lucy Guo: No, it was, like, very much so. Mi casa es su casa. Like, one memory I have of Miami is just, like, I was there for the first time. I had no friends, and I wanted to check out Space. So I just, like, walked in at 6 AM. I’m standing there alone, and then there are these girls who are, like, oh, are you alone? And I was like, oh, yeah. And they’re like, oh, well, you’re at our table. You’re our friend now. Let’s be friends.

Jess Mah: So sweet.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, they just adopted me. I became, like, I made friends with a bunch of people there. And then another girl, like, not, like, two hours later, I was like, oh, you’re friends with her, then you’re friends with me. Mi casa, su casa. Hands me her house keys. It’s, like, you can use my house whenever you want. And I’m just like, I don’t know you, but thank you. And then I end up using her house. So it was great.

Noah Berkson: That’s super unique. What were the other things you really liked about Miami?

Lucy Guo: I would say the food was good, but I would say outside of the food and people, yeah, I think the food and people are the best in Miami.

Noah Berkson: But you leave to start your next.

Jess Mah: Business, and you come back to LA where we are today.

Lucy Guo: Yes, I’m in LA because the creator economy is such a relationship-driven business. And I wanted to be where the creators were, and this way I can see them every single day, invite them to things last minute, etc. Because there is something, I think that emotional retention is very real. There is obviously product retention, but I think that what I’ve learned about creators is that wining and dining and taking care of them and being their friend is going to pay off more than product retention. Sometimes where they will stick with you, even if they think they can make more somewhere else, or even if another company offers them millions of dollars to move over, if they feel that emotional retention, they’re not going to move over.

Jess Mah: But how did you decide that you were going to do a lot of that emotional labor to maintain and create these relationships? Because if you’re trying to build a company with massive scale, which you’ve done before, just hire out a team that does this; they’re effectively your sales reps managing accounts.

Lucy Guo: So I do have a team that does it. I would say, like, there’s a certain level of creator where they don’t want to talk to anyone except the founder. And also, like, I found that, like, I’m just, like, online 24/7. So every single creator has my phone number. And, like, I might have a team, but, like, at, like, 2 AM in the morning, like, my team’s probably not responding. I’m more likely to be responding to them. So yeah, I mean, it’s cool.

Jess Mah: They probably respect the personal touch. And even if it’s just, like, a few things from you here and there, that must go a long way for cementing the partnership?

Lucy Guo: Yep.

Noah Berkson: Is this a big lifestyle change for you? Because, okay, you come from being an engineer, you come from Silicon Valley, then you move to LA, and now, like, your life and business is being with creators, which is, I assume, a lot of nightlife.

Lucy Guo: Not really, no. I would say for the nightlife stuff, I definitely send my team. Like, for example, my friend used to DJ this, like, Thursday night called Bar Lis, and I just refused to go. So I would just, like, kind of force my salespeople to go. I’m like, hey, I know. Like, it’ll be fun, though. Like, 10 PM to 2 AM, you’ll be in the DJ booth; just, like, become friends with every single creator that you see there, and they’re, like, almost more than happy to do so. Oftentimes, I think I try to be there more for the, like, I guess, like, upscale events or, like, the cool things that, like, don’t happen very often.

Noah Berkson: What are the wristbands you have on right now?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, so I took our team to the F1. Cool. And these are from the F1.

Jess Mah: Oh, fun. That’s awesome.

Noah Berkson: What was your experience at F1?

Lucy Guo: I mean, it was great. You know, they had a caviar bar, so I was just eating mounds and mounds of caviar.

Jess Mah: Caviar?

Lucy Guo: Oh yeah. Like, this is, like, an example where I’m kind of cheap. Like, I will never pay for caviar on my own, but, like, if I get it for free, which I happen to be at a lot of places where I get free caviar, which is an amazing perk of life, I’ll eat, like, all of it. Like, at some point, I was, like, just, like, keep on giving me just mounds of caviar on my plate anywhere. It was great.

Jess Mah: Were you into caviar and, like, uni and all this fine stuff before Scale too, or, like, I don’t think I.

Lucy Guo: Ever experienced it before because I could never afford it, and I wasn’t in, like, these situations where I would get it for free. But I would say, like, my, like, taste in food. I really like savory foods and salty foods. Like, I oversalt my food. So it was, like, pretty much natural that I would like it. Has your.

Jess Mah: Your life and your relationships with your parents and your extended family and your childhood friends changed a lot since making money and being successful? What’s that evolution been like? And have you had to drop any relationships because it just doesn’t fit anymore?

Lucy Guo: I wouldn’t say I had to drop relationships because of, like, being successful. I would say, like, my relationships more so dropped when I dropped out of college because I was, like, at a different place in life than a lot of my peers that I had maybe, like, went to school with, right? So we just didn’t have as much in common. Like, I was working and, like, let’s say in high school, all we talked about was, like, anime, right? Like, I wasn’t watching anime anymore, which isn’t great for conversation. Or, like. Like, so many girls, like, all they talk about is, like, boys when they’re growing up, right? And that just, like. That talk didn’t interest me anymore. So I would say, like, that is something where, like, I kind of diverged from my, like, childhood friend groups. As for my parents, though, I would say we’re probably closer, but I wouldn’t say it’s, like, a function of being successful. I would say it’s, like, a function just, like, me maturing and realizing that, like, all the things that they did in the past were because they loved me and that they were really trying to do what was best for me. And I could see, like, why it really hurt them when I, like, dropped out, like, quit my job, etc. But now we’re on good terms, so.

Jess Mah: Yeah, that’s really beautiful.

Noah Berkson: Do they get to enjoy some of your success? Like, will they. Will they take that and enjoy it?

Lucy Guo: I don’t think they like me spending money. Like, I took them on a trip to Switzerland. Like, I went. I took them on a Christmas vacation to Switzerland. The whole family. I spent a lot of money on that Switzerland trip. And they just got so mad at me. They’re like, why did you hire a private driver? We could have taken a train. And it was to the point where I started crying. And I didn’t talk to them for, like, the last two days of vacation because it made me feel so bad.

Jess Mah: So the immigrant mentality is to stay frugal, and you can’t really pull that out of someone.

Lucy Guo: Exactly.

Jess Mah: How about you? You’ve made a lot of money, Noah. How do you.

Noah Berkson: Well, I’d say it’s so funny because I think. Yeah, I think a lot of people, if they are frugal, they just don’t enjoy that. Even when you’re, like, hey, let me take you to this nice dinner. Hey, fly business class. Hey, these things. And they’re just thinking about, well, like, this is really expensive. Or, like, I don’t need to order the steak. I could order, like, the chicken. And it’s $20. You know, it’s $20 cheaper.

Jess Mah: Are your parents bougie?

Noah Berkson: No, not at all. Extremely. Extremely frugal.

Jess Mah: Wow.

Noah Berkson: I was thinking I had a similar experience in college. I dropped out of college, and I started a business, and I lost pretty much all my college friends because pretty quickly it’s, like, the things that were important pre-that just weren’t important anymore. And it was pretty hard to relate to people because they can’t really relate to you. Or they’re, like, come out tonight, and, like, dude, I can’t. Like, I gotta. Like, I have to work, and I have to make. Like, I have to make payroll, right? Or it’s, like, all these things start to change where it’s just, like, hard to relate to friends. Yeah, I definitely had that. Did you end up making a lot of older friends then to kind of, like, compensate for that?

Lucy Guo: No, I would say my friends were mainly the people that I met in the dropout community in San Francisco. There are quite a lot of us. You know, there are a lot of Thiel Fellows, for example, and I just noticed that, like, some slightly older friends, like, you know, 25, let’s say, back when I was, I don’t know, 18, 19 years old, everyone wants to, like, help and mentor the, like, young kid that might be a prodigy, right? And I don’t think any of us are really prodigies, except maybe Vitalik. I would call Vitalik a prodigy. But people viewed, like, just being part of the Thiel Fellowship as, like, something that makes you a prodigy, even though I would say it’s just more so people that are smart, that were, like, more risk-oriented.

Jess Mah: Should we talk about dating?

Lucy Guo: Sure, we can talk about dating.

Jess Mah: What is it like to date as you now?

Lucy Guo: It’s very interesting. I think that I’ve had the benefit of, like, being in, like, I have a large network, right? So, like, I have a lot of people to choose from, which is really nice. For example, like, for the longest time, I pretty much only had, like, trust fund babies hitting on me. And I’m like, okay, cool. Well, like, you have liquid money, so you can pay for everything, which was great. But then also you get, like, the other side where, like, you know, I don’t really know how to say this that nicely, but, like, a lot of people are gold diggers or, like, escorts in LA, and, like, you know, I’m bi, so, like, I have a lot of these, like, escorts leech onto me in LA, and I’m like, oh, well.

Jess Mah: How do you meet the escorts? What’s the mechanism?

Lucy Guo: Oh, well, you don’t really know they’re escorts until someone tells you.

Jess Mah: Wait, you’re just picking them up organically, or is it through an app or.

Lucy Guo: You know, there’s no app or escort. Well, I mean, just off Hinge, you’re.

Jess Mah: Like swiping, and then it’s, like, an.

Lucy Guo: I would say it’s organically, like, in.

Jess Mah: Person organically or whatever.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I will say there are a lot of escorts on Raya.

Jess Mah: Uh-huh.

Noah Berkson: How do you spot this out now? Like, how do you know intuitively, like, pretty quickly or instinctively, like, this is probably an escort?

Lucy Guo: Oh man, that is so controversial.

Jess Mah: Or, like, give us the controversial.

Noah Berkson: We love controversial.

Lucy Guo: Again, I want to preface this by saying that, like, I am all for people getting their bag. I just, like, you know, I think it’s, like, a form of cheating if I’m with someone; I don’t know what they’re doing. So prefacing it with, like, go get your bag, right, girls? But as for how you can tell, I would say they’re, like, always on jets. They’re going to, like, very luxurious vacations with, like, nobody in the background. They definitely own a lot of expensive stuff. Like, they’re on. They have Hermès bags, they have Chanel, etc., and they just don’t have a job. You can’t Google their last name.

Jess Mah: Wow, you’ve got a system down.

Noah Berkson: Okay, and so, so dating in LA, what are some really bad experiences that you’ve had?

Lucy Guo: Probably the escorts.

Noah Berkson: Probably the escorts. Okay. Okay. Do you have any stories from that? Like, anything that you can recount?

Lucy Guo: They’re all really nice people. Like, they’re really genuinely nice people. They’re actually a lot smarter than you would think. Like, I think that part of it is that they probably studied psychology; they’re very intellectual, etc. And they can keep a conversation going for hours, which is how they reel you in. I think it’s just, like, you know, it hurts in the end when you realize, like, oh, you’ve been, like, hooking up with all these people without telling me behind my back, like, what?

Noah Berkson: So they don’t ask you for, like, money or for anything. They just start doing that with other people. So they, like, come to you, like, hey, this is just a normal relationship. And then you find out that they’re.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Wow.

Jess Mah: Oh, fascinating. And are you looking for, like, a long-term serious thing?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would like to get married and have kids. Yeah, yeah. Like, I actually was, like, maybe I should start dating men again. Which I did, you know, open up my dating apps back to men. Because I was like, man, like, it’s so much easier. Like, you don’t have to worry about that problem. They pay for everything. I love people paying for me now.

Jess Mah: But would you want to only be with a guy who could pay for everything, or do you believe in equal? How do you deal with the polarity issue?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I fully believe in a guy paying for everything. Like, I’m a woman. I like being taken care of. I think the biggest turnoff that I can have is if, like, a guy asks to split the bill. Sometimes I’ll just take the check because I’m nice. Right. Like, if I ask someone out, I’m always gonna be taking the check. Or if, like, I feel like the guy’s got enough turns, then, like, you know, I’ll take the check. But no, I believe in chivalry. Like, I’m actually, like, a lot more, like, princess girlier than most people would think in that sense.

Noah Berkson: How does that translate when you’re dating women?

Lucy Guo: Oh, I pay for everything, but I think that, like, I expect them to do nice things, like, cook for me, for example. Like, I’m pretty much, like, a guy in that sense where it’s, like, okay, cool, like, and, like, just don’t make me feel used. Like, if I’m picking up, like, you know, the dinner and, like, a bunch of things, like, pick up, like, one drink.

Jess Mah: Yeah, yeah.

Noah Berkson: Would you. Would you marry a woman long-term, or, like, do you. You want to. You want to marry a guy? How are you thinking about that?

Lucy Guo: I don’t really think about it. Like, I would marry a guy or girl.

Noah Berkson: Okay.

Jess Mah: It’s just about the person. If it’s the right fit.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: What are you looking for?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would say, like, one thing that I’ve always valued that I don’t know if I should value is, like, being a power couple. I like really intellectual, successful, like, ambitious people. But also I realize that that’s, like, not the most important traits in the world sometimes. Like, obviously, like, you know, high EQ, being loyal, being kind are important as well. I think my standards might be a little bit too high, but, like, that’s a whole other thing. But I would say, like, there are, like, deal-breaker traits and traits that are just, like, you know, I could live without.

Jess Mah: Do you think you emasculate the men, given how successful you are? Because I get asked that all the time too, and it makes it a bit challenging.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I would say, typically, the men that I have dated are more successful or, like, come from very old money, so they don’t feel that emasculated.

Jess Mah: But then, isn’t that limiting? Shouldn’t you be open to dating guys who are, like, less successful or not from old money? And then you might have some of this, but you might not also?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I think my philosophy is I want to be able to do things without having to pay for the guy. How do I explain this? Like, if we are going on a trip to Europe, and I don’t want to fly economy because I value sleep at least, you know, like, when I’m, like, traveling, I want to, like, be on an adventure, like, right when I land. And I really don’t like back pain. I want the guy to be also, like, I’ll pay for my own business class flight. It’d be nice if he could pay for his. Like, I don’t want to pay for his.

Jess Mah: Yeah, but he’ll pay for his own.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: So it’s, like, you have the super-rich guys, and then in the middle where they’ll cover themselves, so they’ll still take you out, but they’re not going to cover all your luxuries. Like, you’d be okay with that?

Lucy Guo: I’d be okay with that, yes.

Jess Mah: All right, perfect. So let’s send Lucy a DM if you or anyone you know qualifies.

Noah Berkson: There’s a Kelleher.

Jess Mah: Kelleher. Yeah, Kelleher. I have so many friends who met their now-wives on Kelleher.

Noah Berkson: There’s Kelleher. There’s this dating. It’s, like, a luxury high-end dating service where I think it’s, like, 50 grand.

Jess Mah: I thought about joining Kelleher, but they quoted me 125 grand.

Noah Berkson: Because you’re picky. Because I think they do it based on how picky you’re gonna be about.

Jess Mah: The people you’re gonna meet.

Lucy Guo: That’s actually really interesting because most high-end dating apps I see, it’s, like, the girls are free, and the guys have to pay massive amounts of money.

Noah Berkson: But this also isn’t, like, an app; it’s just a service. So what you’ll be is you’ll be, like, here’s the, here’s the type of person I wanna meet, right? And, like, am I open to. Is it just California, or is it just LA? Is it. I’m open anywhere.

Lucy Guo: But the services are the same where it’s, like, the girls, unless they know the girl has money, then they don’t ask the girl for money. But, like, for the most, I, like, I pretend I’m a different name, for example. And then. And they will literally just add you for free.

Jess Mah: But then you’re passive in the network. You’re not active.

Lucy Guo: You’re passive.

Jess Mah: And I want to introduce you to my friend Courtney. My friend Courtney is helping powerful, strong, successful, and rich women figure out what exactly do they want, how do they get clear on that, and how do they show up in a way that attracts the guy they want. So I’m going to put you in touch with her and anyone else you need some, some help here, let me know. Especially if you’re a powerful woman. I thank Courtney for helping me figure out all my own stuff, and she would make me write this, like, guide for what does it feel like to be with the perfect person? And over three months, we tweaked it, like, on, at least a weekly basis.

Noah Berkson: You realize that, like, what you want in that moment might not actually be exactly what you want, and you start to, exactly. Yeah, yeah. This, this Kelleher one. Because also it weeds out a lot of the people, right? So it’s, like, it’s all successful women who would also be able to, like, pay 50 grand or 100 grand or whatever to go do a service, which also means you’re very serious. But you’re not getting, like, I don’t generally like X, or, like, you’re not getting, like, model, actress, that type of thing. You’re getting, like, VP at Salesforce or, like, you know, at Meta or.

Lucy Guo: See, like, my problem is, like, I really like creative people. So, like, the people that I would date are, like, you know, musicians, actors, actresses, like, DJs, etc., which also limits the pool even more because the number of successful people that, you know, are in those fields, like, the percentage chance of making it is just very small.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Have you dated any of those people? Oh yeah, lots of them.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Okay, tell us about Passes. Maybe to backtrack a little bit. You started after you took a little bit of time off, and then you start Passes. Why is that something that you. Why is that an area you want to start a business in? Why is that an area you even really know much about?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, so I actually started Passes while I was running HF0 and Backend Capital. So we were essentially trying to, like, incubate, like, be the best accelerator for companies and alternative to YC. And during that period of time over COVID, I just made a ton of creator friends, and I saw that there was a real problem in the creator economy when it came to good monetization. Around the same time, Patreon raised at a 4-billion-dollar valuation, and I really respected the brand, but I thought that I could probably move at a faster pace in terms of product velocity. So I floated the idea to a bunch of LPs because none of my founders in the batch would work on it. And then they’re like, yes, go start a company. And quite literally within 48 hours, every text message I had around raised didn’t have a name, didn’t have a deck. I literally was, like, hey, I’m building another company. Don’t really know what it’s going to be, but it’s going to be, like, you know, adjacent to Patreon. And it was just, it was a really quick fundraise, so ended up just starting it. And the idea is that, like, we want to be the best place for creators to monetize their brand and, like, become entrepreneurs. Because I think creators are businesses, and I see them, like, as small businesses today. But, like, you can really grow them into, like, these unicorn companies. And we see this with, like, you know, Jake Paul’s companies, like, Better, for example, now he has W. Logan Paul with Prime, like, Kylie with her cosmetic brand, like, every influencer with their liquor brand, etc. But, like, they are essentially their own marketing machine. They don’t need any CAC, really. So. And, like, with Passes, we even see, like, how much fans are willing to spend on their creators. Just because you say, like, go spend money on this. And it translates pretty well when you find, like, a product, for example, that you think your fans will align with.

Noah Berkson: How did you differentiate, like, when you were thinking about that initially? Because there’s probably a couple different categories of this. There’s, like, adult, right? Which would be, like, the, like, OnlyFans side of creative. And then there was, like, the Patreon side. Did you say, hey, I want to just play, like, right in the middle, or, like, is that. Yeah. How were you thinking about that?

Lucy Guo: So I mean, like, we’re actually a lot stricter than Patreon. Patreon allows nudity, for example. We don’t have any of that. So a lot of, like, nude content that is on Patreon. They just, like, have to go to Patreon instead of us if they don’t want the, like, adult brand. I would say that the vision has always been to build fintech tools. And in order to build fintech tools, you can’t, like, be an adult platform. Right. So, like, that was already just cut off from the beginning.

Noah Berkson: That’s a very challenging space to be in. Do you then, like, did you kind of see, you saw this as, like, a conduit to, like, embedded finance. And that was, like, the whole idea for this business.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, I had initially wanted to build a company that, like, basically got creators these, like, better brand deals that included equity, for example. But then I realized that creators just aren’t gonna trust their manager. And their managers are very, like, cash-incentivized because Hollywood loves upfront cash. If you weren’t the one making them the most money possible. And I saw how much money was possible to be made from, like, direct fan-to-creator interactions, especially during COVID when, like, you know, everyone was really lonely. Right. And they were craving a deeper connection. So I think step one was, like, okay, cool, like, let’s make more money for creators than really anywhere else they’re making. So they gain your trust. And once you have the creators’ trust, they’re going to listen to you over their, like, agents and managers, and we’re going to be more, like, incentive-aligned as well. So now creators make, like, 80 to 100% of their income on Passes. And, like, even our larger creators, you know, the ones with, like, tens of millions of followers, we’re still the majority of their income, which is pretty cool to see. But because of that, I think that we have a lot more opportunities in, like, the fintech space that other platforms don’t have.

Noah Berkson: That’s, that’s very cool. How does that, how does that with agents and managers, like, are they a little bit hesitant to let, like, their talent on because they’re, like, now this person’s going to become dependent on, like, this company. They’re going to see how valuable, like, they can make all their money here. And so, like, where am I going to add value? Or is it not necessarily, like, that?

Lucy Guo: I would say that it’s not, like, that because for a lot of agents and creators to this day, it still works that, like, they get 20% of whatever a creator does, at least, no.

Jess Mah: Matter what, are, like, locked in for yourself.

Lucy Guo: So we actually see a lot of our creators, you know, they’ll, like, literally go into their console andchange changed an amount they’re making. So when they give it to their managers, they’re taking a smaller cut of the 20%. Like we’ve seen people change their like earnings from 50,000 to 5,000 one day, like you know, in their console so they can lie about how much they owe their managers, which are wild. Nowadays these contracts are starting to change where it’s like no longer that exclusive. It’s like you only get 20% of like what you bring to me, but like so many creators are locked into these, like, pretty predatory contracts from the past. And I’ve seen a lot of my friends currently, you know, like, they have lawyers and they’re going out after their managers now. It’s pretty crazy as an industry.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, I’d assume that happens a lot, especially with Nil and younger people. Like, what. What have you seen there? Because it seems like a lot of those people are on passes.

Lucy Guo: I would say with Nil, it’s actually been a lot more generous because every agent wants to, like, take over Nil, for example. So because of that, they’re like, just doing representation essentially for free for a lot of people because it’s such a new thing that they want to, like, prove their value first.

Noah Berkson: What are you seeing, like, the highest paid person, like, Nil person that you have on passes? How much money are they making?

Lucy Guo: Like, six figures a month.

Jess Mah: Wow.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: That’s amazing.

Noah Berkson: Does a lot of that also come from. Is there, like, messaging on the back end? Is that where the majority of the revenue comes from?

Lucy Guo: It depends on each creator. So, for example, some creators are going to make more off of, like, merchandise than they are off of subscription. I would say as platform as a whole, the majority of income is made off of dms, but it is per creator.

Noah Berkson: Is this a business you need to keep raising money for, or is this something that you think can just be like, a cash printing machine?

Lucy Guo: I think it’d be a cash printing machine. I would say, like, the argument for me to make raise money, for example, is like, if I decide, like, okay, cool, like, Nil is really working and I want to, like, have a faster way of buying out every university. Or I’m like, okay, cool, I want to go into pro leagues. Like, that’s more expensive. But yeah, like, we’ve seen similar businesses, I think, that just print cash.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, that’s super exciting.

Jess Mah: I love cash printing businesses.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, like, we were cash flow positive earlier this year, and now we’re like, we have like over a decade of Runway left. So it’s nice.

Jess Mah: That’s great.

Noah Berkson: What really, like, what gives you energy?

Lucy Guo: What gives you energy? I think Barry’s gives me energy, for sure. I think that, like, as like a very objective answer. Like, I wake up every single day, I do Barry’s boot camp, and like, the exercise and just like, the music alone gives me a lot of energy. Other than that, I would say it’s just like, you know, solving problems. I think that, like, this company is giving me a lot of energies because it’s definitely like a Roller coaster. There’s lots of ups and downs. Like, you know, there’s highs when like, you know, we get a like very large creator and they launch and it’s going fantastic and there’s lows if like a creator like leaves the platform for whatever reason. Luckily we have almost 100% retention on like creators that make 5k a month or more. But sometimes a competitor just comes in and you’re just like, we’re going to triple what you make, which we never really fight back on because it would be stupid to lose money on a creator where we know exactly how much they’re making and they pretty much always come back. We actually just got one that purposefully didn’t fulfill her contract with a competitor, like stopped sending any posts because she was like, she hated them so much she wanted to break the contract and come back to us. And we flagged the competitors name. So I get to see all the messages that come in that she’s sending and I’m like, wow, you really love us.

Noah Berkson: And now I know we talked about this earlier, but your motivation. So your motivation isn’t money, your motivation is solving hard problems.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, I think I like solving problems specifically for my friends. I’ve always been the person that encourages someone to drop out of college, start their own company, etc. Now I was doing that over Covid where I had a lot of creator friends. I’m like, oh, you should use user talents and like start a creative agency. For example, you could probably do like podcast editing and filming for people and make like X amount per month. And a lot of my friends ended up like taking my advice and like starting their own companies and businesses because of it. And it’s just like very fulfilling to see and I think I just want to scale that. To start, I say like life and goal is like, I definitely want to like make my mark doing something like very good for the world. I think in my head like I’ve always been like fascinated by like human trafficking because like yes, drug is like the number one crime. But like human trafficking is something that like isn’t anyone’s choice, right? Like they are quite literally being kidnapped, then trafficked, which is like, I think one of the most disgusting crimes on earth. So it’s like, okay, cool, like how can I support this cause and try to combat it? And the answer is either I think start my own human trafficking org with like a tech focus on it, or just do what I do best, which is like make a lot of money and donate.

Jess Mah: Yeah, let’s put in touch with our friend we talked earlier today.

Noah Berkson: Just talk to somebody that has a. Has a nonprofit doing that right before we came to see you could be. Could be the right person. Yeah. Are you doing something philanthropy right now?

Lucy Guo: I mean, like, I do donate to charities, but I would say, like, I’m definitely just fully focused on passes. We’re trying to figure out, like, how we can do philanthropy within passes. So, like, those are other interesting, like, product features that we’re looking into.

Jess Mah: Can I ask, what’s your attitude on your work life integration? Because going through Y Combinator, the attitude is you’re going to sleep under your desk and work 100 hours a week and, like, you’re going to die before this business goes out of business. How do you think about it now?

Lucy Guo: I would think about it pretty similarly. Like, I thought about it. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever, like, fully taken a day off. Like, have I, like, been at a festival? Yes. But, like, do I have my phone and my laptop on me at the festival? Yes. So in that sense, I would say, like, always working. In terms of just like, hours in the office, I would say I probably get into the office at around 9 and leave. Leave at around maybe 9.

Jess Mah: So you left early to hang out with us?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, no, I actually got called out. People were like, oh, Lucy, you’re sneaking out of the office early today. And I’m like, I’m filming a podcast, guys.

Jess Mah: Thank you for being with us.

Lucy Guo: Of course, of course. But yeah, like, I think that, like, in general, like, for me, like weekdays, I like working until, let’s say, midnight and then I go to sleep.

Jess Mah: You really don’t sleep a lot. Then if you’re waking up at like 5:30am to go to bed and you’re going to sleep at midnight, like, that’s a five hour night.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, yeah, I would say, like, probably go to sleep between 11 to 12. I really do shoot for like, a minimum five hours of sleep.

Jess Mah: Do you worry about, like, your health and long term vitality if you’re only sleeping five hours a night?

Lucy Guo: I mean, according to the doctor, I’m pretty healthy. That being said, like, I think that the most I’ve ever slept in my life is seven hours. So, like, for me, five hours isn’t like that. Crazy.

Jess Mah: I’m so jealous. I sleep eight hours every night.

Lucy Guo: I wish I could sleep eight hours. I mean, this could partially be my fault. Like, I fall asleep pretty late and then I purposely keep the blinds open so I don’t use curtains because I like waking up to the natural sunlight.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: Because it doesn’t feel like I’m, you know, just like waking up from a dream or something. So that’s probably also why I end up sleeping less. Because, you know, by the, like, seven hour mark, the sun’s bright.

Noah Berkson: Who is like, one of the most influential people that. That are instrumental in your success? If you look back and you say, I wouldn’t be here. I wouldn’t be where I am today without that person.

Lucy Guo: Weirdly enough, it’s probably my stalker from high school.

Noah Berkson: Tell us more.

Lucy Guo: Oh, man, this one’s crazy. This is a story. He also did Y Combinator, so I hope he doesn’t see this. Yeah, I mean, now that I think about it, like, looking back, it’s actually really, like, kind of fucked up everything that happened. But I was basically on this forum called College Confidential, and I was like, I need help with my college applications. And I had meant to be a chemical engineer because I was just like, you know, I was crushing in AP chemistry. It was my favorite subject, blah, blah, blah. So in my head I was like, okay, I’m good at chemistry, I’m good at math. Let’s be a chemical engineer. And this guy looks at my extracurriculars and my application and he’s like, you’re a fucking idiot. You should go to software engineering. And I quite literally never even considered software engineering to be a degree, so I was like, okay, cool, I guess I’ll go to cs. And he’s like, yeah, you’re meant to do startups, et cetera. And he, like, really, like, got me curious about the startup world. And I don’t know how, but, like, after that, I somehow, like, got invited to this hacker house called Rainbow Mansion and then met someone that routed me to Thiel Fellowship. So, like, in that sense, I was probably like, one of the reasons I even got the Thiel Fellowship because I had built that relationship in high school. But yeah, he ended up, you know, following me to college after I ghosted him. I think he was like. Like I was obviously 17 at the time that he was, like, messaging me, in love with me, and I think he was like, what, 2520? So, like, a little bit of a weirdo, but yeah.

Noah Berkson: Okay, well, was this, like, this, like, got to a point and you need to, like, get a restrain. We can cut this, but, like, you need to, like, get a restraining order or something or this is just, like, creepy.

Lucy Guo: I mean, it’s great. Like, he probably sent me like two emails since then. Like, since he like found me in my college and I just remember like I was so scared for my life. But all he did was he like dropped his suitcase and made a bang. And it was like 2am to see us building by the way. And he just like slowly walks over to me, like grabs my hand, kisses and leaves and I never see him again, thank God. And then he sent me like two emails since then.

Noah Berkson: Terrifying. Have you ever had a stalker?

Jess Mah: I have not had any stalkers like that.

Lucy Guo: And like, see it wasn’t as creepy to me back then, but now, you know, I’m like older. I’m like, oh my God, I was like 17 and this guy had like a full on management job at IBM or something.

Jess Mah: So who do you admire and look up to now? Like, is there anyone who you’ve studied and said I want to be more like them?

Lucy Guo: I would say in general I look up to like people who have founded multiple companies and have been successful at doing so.

Noah Berkson: Did you feel like there was like some pressure when you started pass like when you started your next company that like, hey, I built this unicorn company now like whatever I do next has to be like of substantial value or something maybe equal to what I built?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean I definitely feel that pressure. But I think that pressure is like good for me as well because I’m like, you know, fully focused on doing it a second time and it’s going well, so I have no complaints.

Jess Mah: But what’s the balance between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation for you? Like intrinsic being. You’re just motivated because you love solving problems, you love helping people versus like the pressure, extrinsic being the pressure of like I have to do this to, you know, check the box of I have multiple successes. I’m not a one or two trick pony, you know what I mean?

Lucy Guo: I mean I would say for me it is very intrinsic that I want a two trick pony because like I could fail. And like I don’t think any of my investors would care, for example, because they’re just so used to, I mean like obviously they would be upset and disappointed. But like companies fail all the time.

Jess Mah: Right?

Lucy Guo: Venture is a power law effect. I think like it’s gonna be more soul crushing for me if it fails. So like for me it’s like that’s part of my intrinsic motivation.

Jess Mah: Yeah. So you just want to prove to.

Lucy Guo: Yourself that yes, I want to prove to myself.

Jess Mah: But then you crush it. 10 years from now you have another home run, grand slam success and then what, you know, will you just Keep on wanting to do this, or will you be ready to move to the next phase and help with, you know, philanthropy or other stuff? Or you operate your life with no plan. Planning. It’s just year by year. Let’s just see what happens.

Lucy Guo: Honestly, I have very, very little planning. But, like, in my ideal future, I imagine having two kids, which I would imagine I would want to spend more time with. So then I would probably be doing philanthropy. That being said, who knows?

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I didn’t think I’d be starting a second company, to be quite honest.

Jess Mah: Really?

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I thought I was gonna stick in venture, like, stick with venture for, like, the rest of my life.

Noah Berkson: You’re an early investor in Ramp?

Lucy Guo: Yes.

Noah Berkson: These are people you just knew, the founders, like, early on, or what’s the story there?

Lucy Guo: Yeah. So I was a huge fan of their product Paribus. I had used it a ton. And one of my friends, like a teal fellow, he messaged me, he’s like, you have to get in on this round. Like, go meet them. And I was like, oh, my God, I have to get on this round because they’re the founders Paribus. So I literally hopped in New York the next day and meet with them and begged them to let me in, and they let me in with a check. And then we were just, I guess, pretty helpful early on with just hiring, referred them into a bunch of good engineers and other roles, including actually the one that blew up scale with his marketing. He had ended up recruiting him to Ramp after, and then he blew Ramp up too. So, yeah, they let us double down on the next round and ended up being a very good investment.

Jess Mah: That’s awesome.

Noah Berkson: And tell me about some of the misconceptions with creators. When we talked the other day, I was like, it has to be weird because, like, you’re spending a lot of time with people. Like, you’re like, hey, I built technology companies. I’m an engineer. And then I’m spending time with people who, like, create content for a living. And they seem to be very polarly opposite things. And I think my. The way that I would look at creators a lot of times is be like, oh, you’re like, you’re selling photos on the Internet. But I guess the way that you put it, it’s. It’s not. I’m. I’m really oversimplifying it.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. So I would say creators, at least the really successful ones, are very hard workers. Like, much more hardworking than people would expect. Like, they’re up early to do photo shoots. They don’t drink, they’re like completely sober because they want to look fresh whenever they’re doing like their next thing. A lot of them have like a different career, at least ambitions of a different career. Whether that’s like building your own brand or company or like, you know, being a pop star, et cetera. And we’re seeing some of of the hardest working creators transition into the different career successfully, which is really cool to see. I always tell people what makes a difference between a good creator on passes versus someone that doesn’t make a lot of money is just the amount of content they churn out. Content does take time and it takes a lot of creativity. I generally think that creators work harder than people would expect.

Noah Berkson: And you want to help a lot of them also with not only making money, but then keeping that money and growing that money.

Lucy Guo: Exactly.

Noah Berkson: Because a lot of times, times, especially if you’re not, I don’t know if financial literacy is really the term, but if you haven’t had a lot of money before and suddenly you’re making a lot of money, you don’t really know what to do with that money.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I think creators in general just like no one really taught them anything. A lot of them don’t realize taxes exist. Right. So they end up spending all their money on taxes. They’ve always had trouble financial planning partially because of the way brands paid them out, where a lot of brand deals will pay out six months late. So you could be expecting money in February, but it doesn’t come until much later. And then they just, I don’t know what it is. Like, I guess it’s cause like the excitement of finally getting your check. But like, usually what happens is they get the check and they immediately spend it. Like we’ve had creators that were like quite literally homeless and then, you know, started making like a good five figures a month. And then they would call us going like, hey, like, I need my payout today, like right now because I have to pay rent. And I’m like, how can you not pay rent? You just made this much money per month. I was like, can you wait like a day? And they answer me like, no, like I need it right now. And I’m like, that is some pretty bad financial, financial planning. And like we even see in our system, like we offer like three different payout levels. Like you can get it in one day, you can get it instantly, or you can get it in three to five days, but you can technically schedule them daily. So like it is coming every day. If you Schedule it daily. And like, the amount of creators that like, use instant payout and pay that extra 10% is like, it’s pretty wild. So that just shows to me alone, I’m like, everyone needs better financial literacy.

Noah Berkson: And you’re also helping them connect them to a lot of these opportunities to build their own brands.

Lucy Guo: Yep. And we’re working directly with creators on this as well.

Noah Berkson: I was really shocked by. I didn’t realize the extent of that. Like, I went to some dinner recently and there’s like a guy from caa, there’s a guy from UTA that both did brand. Just brand partnerships. As in, like, just finding brands for creators to, like, have equity in and, you know, build. And I just didn’t realize that it was as intentional as it is.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I would say most creators, they make the majority of their money through brand deals, like on passes. They make more money than their brand deals combined. But like, most creators, like, we don’t have every creator obviously on this planet on passes. And if you talk to your creator, like, they’ll tell you, like, all their money is from brand deals. Which is why there’s like, managers and agents that are both out there scoping for brand deals for these creators. And why I don’t think that like, you know, passes interrupts everything. Because it’s just like, okay, cool. If we found creators brand deals and these two people are finding the brand deals, then that’s just more brand deals and more money for creators. We’re not really, like, competing against each other except maybe who’s their favorite.

Noah Berkson: And a lot of these large talent agencies, they like what you’re doing and you can build partnerships with them.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, we work with a lot of talent agencies. We tell them what we’re looking for in a creator they know creators that we might not know even exist. Not to mention that pretty much every large creator is rep by talent agency. So we work with them to convince the creator to come on and then they take their percentage so they’re happy too.

Noah Berkson: I think it’s also very challenging because anytime, if any creators want to do anything, like, outside in the, like, more adult area, it’s really challenging because then most brands won’t ever want to work with those creators. They’re going to have a hard time getting like a Colgate, you know, like a Colgate deal when you’re doing anything on the adult side.

Lucy Guo: Yep, we’ve noticed that too. Which is why, like, a lot of creators that were on of like, want to switch over to passes and we tell them that like, they’re just not going to make us much. And the reason is because I think that like, even if you’re doing completely like G rated content content on of, I think that a lot of people spend money on a false hope that if they spend enough money then maybe you’ll start doing sexier content versus there isn’t that false hope on passes. So the amount that each person is willing to spend is probably just lower. To be quite honest, we’ve seen creators switch from passes to of, and they do make, I would say just slightly more on of. But when they come from of to passes, it’s a big drop to the point where we warren creators were like, if you want brand deals, I guess this is worth it for you, but like you’re going to be seeing a lot less money. And I think that like the creators that do choose to go on of, they make that calculation where they’re like, I’m just going to make so much money and invest it that I won’t ever have to have a brand deal again.

Jess Mah: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it’s just a very different path, you know?

Lucy Guo: Yeah. I mean like you’d be like Corinne Kopf who made like, what was it, $52 million on of something crazy. Wild.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, wild. And hopefully you invest that really well and you have good people around you to help invest that money.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. And like, from what I understand, she lives a pretty like, chill life. Like I think she lives on a farm, doesn’t really go out, et cetera. That’s what I heard. I don’t know if it’s true, but yeah, like if you invest it well and you’re not like an idiot with the spending, like that is enough money where like you don’t have to work. Again, like, we have so many creators on passes that do like, you know, over 100k a month, like some closer to half a mil a month. It’s like if they don’t spend that money and they could technically just be on us for like a few years and that could turn into generational wealth. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: What are a couple things people don’t know about you? That from the outside they wouldn’t know this, that you’re like, but if you knew the real me, this is what you’d know about me.

Lucy Guo: Hmm, that’s a good question. Because I put a lot of my life out there. I would say that, like one thing that I think that people don’t realize, like what I really love is nature. So whenever I’m like figuring out a travel, destination, I always look for like the like highest peak mountains to be able to hike. And then I like Google like the views to make sure that it has like the views that I want. Because I’m very like kind of specific on what I want. And then that’s like kind of how I choose to travel and I’m very spontaneous about it. Then I’ll just like, you know, find like a three day window I have maybe and go. Unfortunately haven’t really been able to travel since passes. But like this winter for example, like over Christmas maybe I’ll go somewhere. At least that’s the plan. So really, really like nature and just like views. My favorite trip I’ve done is South Africa because you know, I was just like in the jungle with the animals. Like literally lions are coming up next to us. Elephants were like in my backyard, et cetera. And they were like, it was like truly in nature, which is cool. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Do you, do you go by yourself on these trips or do you like to go with friends, family?

Lucy Guo: It’s a mix. Like I’ll go by myself or I used to go only by myself. Like I preferred solo trips just to like, you know, be in my own thoughts. But recently I think that I have been more scared for my safety as like my public Persona has gotten more popular or like more well known. So I think like now I would want to go with somebody. I would say like the most recent trips I’ve made have been solo. But. But yeah, like I was just broken into, for example, in my West Hollywood home. And that scares me. Right. Cause I’m like, okay, cool. People are watching my stories and seeing where I am to like target me. Which is not the best feeling in the world.

Noah Berkson: What happened?

Lucy Guo: I posted that I was on a plane to Vegas. My friend was having like a last minute wedding. And literally right after I posted the plane that night, someone came and they broke a window and tried to steal stuff. But I had roommates home and they were really surprised I had people home. Like they definitely did not expect I had people. So they ran off. Wow.

Noah Berkson: Do you have people, do you have roommates or like just people that like crash at your place for time or something?

Lucy Guo: So they were temporary roommates. They’re moving out in December. I’m really sad about it. And after that experience I’m like, I do not want to live alone. I’m almost considering convincing one to stay. I mean like, you stay here for free, you don’t have to pay. Just like, don’t leave me.

Jess Mah: That is, that is the Move. I’ve had. I’ve had veterans living in my house.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: Like, armed, like, you know, ex US army or Marine Corps in one of my guest bedrooms.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. It just makes you feel safer. Cause, like, I’m just scared to, like, touch a gun, for example. But, like, they have guns and, like, that makes me feel safer.

Jess Mah: And they get free rent.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: And it’s a good trade. It’s a great trade. But it’s kind of weird having lots of guns in your house. You know, I just don’t want to see them.

Noah Berkson: That’s terrifying to have to worry about that, though. That actually, like, even has to be a thought that, like, I have to worry that people are going to break into my house.

Lucy Guo: Yeah, no, I’m upgrading my security, but. And I already have, like, started upgrading it, but I’m adding a lot of, like, little barb. Like, I’m adding barbed wire. I’m adding, like, spikes everywhere. So, like, if someone tries to hop this thing, they’re gonna get shocked. And, like. Oh, my God.

Jess Mah: Wait, so what are the other challenges of being well known, successful, rich? Everything.

Lucy Guo: Like, honestly, I would say the perks outweigh the cons. So I think the main con is that, like, I have to worry about my safety. But besides that, everything’s great.

Jess Mah: Yeah, that’s not bad. That’s a good trade.

Noah Berkson: Who do you spend the most time with outside of, like, your team at work?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would just say my homies that I’ve known for, you know, the last few years. They’re amazing. They cook for me. They feed me, like, food at restaurants. I think, like, a common misconception is, like, oh, yeah, like, if you’re rich, people are only friends with you because, like, you’re rich. And I’m like, But I don’t really pay for anything. Like, my friends just do everything for me. And I think what people don’t realize is that, like, rich people are friends with rich people or, like, successful people. And, like, maybe some of my friends don’t have as much money as me, but they’re also, like, gentlemen, and they pay for everything. Like, I haven’t had to take out my credit card at dinners. Like, you know, they cook for me.

Jess Mah: So what percentage of your closest homies are in the successful business camp versus, like, just creatives and other.

Lucy Guo: I mean, my creative friends are also very successful in that, like, they make a lot of money. I would say, like, in terms of, like, successful business versus creatives, it’s probably like, 50. 50. But, like, I think I generally Gravitate towards people that are, like, hard workers. And, like, hard workers are going to be successful, especially, like, closer to my age in, like, whatever they’re doing. Right. So. Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Have you met anyone in the last, like, let’s say the last this year that you’re like, this person is going to be in my life for a very long time.

Lucy Guo: I mean, I think the first person that quite literally comes into my mind is my new cbo. If he ever tries leaving, I’m going to literally lock him up.

Noah Berkson: Do you make. Because you’re very social, you’re meeting lots of people. I bet every week you’re probably meeting 20 new people. Do you make friends easily? Are you a little bit guarded? And you kind of keep the people that you have close to you and don’t make a lot of new friends.

Lucy Guo: So I think that I have a core set of friends that I keep very close to me that I consider they would take a bullet for me. I would take a bullet for them. But I would say, like, my problem is I might be, like, a little bit too friendly. Like, for example, if there’s, like, a concert coming up and, like, I know I have extra artist passes, and, like, I could, like, literally reach out to someone that I don’t even know the name of, Basically, I’ll be like, hey, like, I know you like this artist. Like, do you want this pass? And then, like, suddenly they think that, like, we’re best friends and, like, I will not remember them next time I meet them. And this happens so much where it’s like a running joke where, like, people come to me, like, lucy, you’ve met me, like, five times or 10 times. Or, like, I’ll give a hug, like, oh, my God, so good to see you. I’ll just be like, I don’t remember your name. Like, even at f one weekend, like, the number of people. Like, I had, like, 10 people come up to me, hugging me, like, scream my name, be so excited to see me. I didn’t know any of their names. Oh, no. Like, oh, man. So I would say I am extremely friendly to the, like, everyone. Like, you know, they’re just like, oh, my God, we’re best friends. And I’m like, oh, so bad with names of basis.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Which is probably really helpful in what you’re doing, though, right? Because you need to make everyone feel like you’re, like, their best friend. And it’s also, like, a helpful way to meet more, I assume, more creators. I assume more people that are going to go on passes.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Jess Mah: It Seems like you are generally open to new relationships and friendships and that’s cool.

Lucy Guo: Yep. And there are just people that are like, you know, I. Like, they’re amazing and I bond with them and, you know, we’re hanging out, like, all weekend long, but because I meet so many people, like, by like, three weekends later, I will have forgotten their name.

Jess Mah: Yeah, I get that.

Lucy Guo: Especially if they’re like, you’re not in la, so I’m not seeing them, like, again right away. Yeah.

Jess Mah: What’s that phrase you used? Emotional recency or something?

Lucy Guo: Emotional retention.

Jess Mah: Emotional retention. Yeah, like that.

Noah Berkson: Emotional retention.

Lucy Guo: That’s high emotion. That’s high Friendship retention.

Noah Berkson: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. You’ll have to meet me like, five times before I remember you.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: It’s very cool, though, because I think a lot of people, as they get more success, they become a lot more closed, and they become more closed off and, like, isolated in maybe the group that they’re in. And they kind of are just like, we just stick with this.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. And I see that a lot with, like, my super successful friends or, like, my super old money friends. Like, they refuse to make new friends. Like, I’ll be like, oh, can I bring a friend over to your place? And you’re like, absolutely not. You owe me. And I’m like, well, no, I don’t want to go over because I’m with, like, a friend that I don’t want to ditch.

Jess Mah: Why do you think the old money people in particular are so bad at making. Making new friends and why are they so. Because, like, so many people have lots of money now. It’s not that.

Lucy Guo: I think they got more paranoid because, like, from a very young age, they were probably taught, like, people will use you for your money and, like, your safety will be compromised, etcetera, Versus new money. We grew up very normal. Right. And, like, we understand what it’s like. Yeah, exactly.

Jess Mah: It’s like hustling.

Noah Berkson: It’s a really sad way to live, though, to not be able to go make new relationships and feel like people are just out to get you.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: I will say that, like, they’re very, very close to the friends that they have. Like, they’ve grown up with them. What I’ve realized is, like, pretty much every old money family is a connected. Like, I can guess if someone’s old money just based off our mutual friends on Instagram, I’ll be like, oh, you only know these people, therefore you must be old money. And it’s like, right. Pretty much 100% of the time.

Noah Berkson: Could you. Could you end up with one of those people if it’s like they were very well off, but it’s not, it’s.

Lucy Guo: Not earned, I don’t really mind. But I would want them to at least like be working. I think that I have a lot of friends that are old money and they’re like, schedule is literally like wake up at 6pm, get ready, go to dinner party, fall asleep at 6am and repeat. And I don’t think I could be with someone like that. Like I would want them to like at least have some ambition still. I think it’s like, like I would never penalize someone for, for growing up luckier than someone else. Right. As long as they’re still like hardwood. I would almost say it’s maybe more impressive that they’re like so hardworking and motivated in that it’s so much easier to be lazy in that environment.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, I was talking to someone the other day about this concept because I think a lot of those people that as you get more successful, you’re more isolated, whatever, you stop doing things, you stop trying to meet. Like you kind of don’t want to like cold out reach, reach somebody. Like, you get. It almost makes it weirder for people. I’ve been so successful, I’m not gonna like cold email this person. And I’m like, they just need like a networking person, right? Like a chief networking officer that just goes out and like finds good relationships that are kind of like trusted and vetted for you. I think a lot of people would benefit from that. Cause it would like open up that container for them where they feel a little bit more, a little bit more open to meeting people, knowing that like, hey, these people aren’t just like trying to get things from me.

Lucy Guo: I feel like there’s always so many events though where it’s like, you know, you’re at the event and you know that every single person at that event is like pre qualified.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, yeah, that’s the F1 Super bowl type things or what are you thinking about?

Lucy Guo: I mean, I would just say like, for example, like if there’s like an art event, for example, and it’s being hosted by like a certain group of people, then you know that everyone there is probably pre qualified. But I will also say that like, I wouldn’t say F1 is like totally pre qualification because I think that old money wealth is a lot. I don’t want to say snobbier, but in some way it’s like different. Right? Like, I can’t really explain it, but the vibes are not there. Like, they might, like, admire someone in tech that has, like, multiple billions, but doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll, like, want to be friends with them.

Noah Berkson: Yeah. Okay.

Lucy Guo: Even if that person has significantly more money than them.

Noah Berkson: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Fair. Yeah.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. Doesn’t really make sense to me. Like, totally. But, like, I see it.

Noah Berkson: Yeah, I totally know what you’re saying.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: What else. What else are you hacking? Like, what else are the things in your life today that you’ve, like, found a way to hack?

Lucy Guo: I mean, hotels. But I’m sure you have the same thing. Do you not?

Noah Berkson: No. Maybe.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. What?

Noah Berkson: You know, I actually though I met a guy who sold a company to Gusto somewhat recently, and he was like, I just. He’s like kind of a. He’s a tech guy. He’s like kind of like a not. Not nerdy, but, like, really intellectual, like, engineer tech guy. And he’s like, I realize that hotels will, if you’re like a, you know, like an influencer or somewhat famous, right. Will give you either, like, comp rooms or give you huge discounts on rooms. He’s like, so I bought an Instagram page with like 100,000 followers, and it was like, not very much. And he’s like, they, like, I have someone post a couple of pictures of me, and then I have my assistant reach out to the hotels. I, ahead of time, be like, he wants to come stay at the hotel. He’s very, like. He’s a very, like, famous, you know, influencer or whatever. And a lot of times they’ll just give him discounts on hotels. And he’s like, not that guy at all. Like, he’s just.

Lucy Guo: I know a girl that literally bought 2 million followers on Instagram and, like, buys fake engagement per photo. So, like, her photos will get, like, thousands of likes and comments. So it looks very real, right? Unless you, like, know what fake comments look like, which, like, you know, it’s just emoji spamming, essentially. Like, if it’s enough emoji spanning, they’re fake comments, even if the accounts look real. And she just gets free, like, flights, free hotels, et cetera, everywhere at these, like, five star resorts. It’s insane. Like, this is like a brilliant, like, most brilliant hack ever, except also it’s kind of scamming people. And, like, I think that, like, eventually at some point she may get sued. I think they, like, made a law saying that, like, buying fake Instagram followers is now illegal. Really, something came up or, like a bill, I don’t know. But, like, someone is trying to, like, ban buying fake followers because it is harmful to businesses. If you know, you’re dumb and you’re not checking for these things, but, like, you know, a lot of them. Like, if it looks like there’s fake engagement, if there is fake engagement, a lot of people just, like, won’t know.

Noah Berkson: All right, so hotels, anything else?

Lucy Guo: Yes, hotels. I mean, I don’t know. I’m just extremely cheap. Like, one thing I do is, like, when I go to restaurants, I go check to see if there’s, like, you know, a deal on Uber Eats. So last restaurant I was at, they had two for one for spicy vodka, and I literally got the, like, spicy rigatoni and bought it on Uber Eats and had it delivered to my table in plastic boxes because it was two for one, which is a great deal, by the way. I just saved myself, like, $27.

Jess Mah: But. But at a certain level, it doesn’t make sense to optimize that much.

Lucy Guo: I think when I first did my secondary and I had money, people were so confused because I was still taking Uber pools. And they were just like, why are you taking Uber pools? Like, you may have enough money and like, like, don’t you value your time? And I’m like, well, I’m meeting interesting people in a car. You know, like, there are some pretty cool conversations that happen. Actually, my Uber driver is the reason why we got our pre seed round for scale. That’s a whole nother thing.

Noah Berkson: Can you tell us. Can you tell us about that briefly?

Lucy Guo: Yeah, I mean, he was just saying, hey, do you know, like, this guy Paige Craig, he, like, coined a term in Silicon Beach. And I was like, oh, no, I don’t. And then afterwards, you know, we have a conversation about him. I look him up on Twitter, he’s already following me. I sign on his DMs, tell him I’m thinking about doing YC, and I have a startup idea. We meet in, like, LA a few times, and he’s like, I want to invest a million dollars.

Noah Berkson: Did you ever go back to this Uber driver and be like, hey, thank you so much.

Lucy Guo: I have no idea who they are. Yeah, but, like, I just have, like, a lot of interesting conversations in, like, these Ubers. So. But for me, I was like, oh, like an Uber fool isn’t really a waste of time. Plus, I could always technically be working my laptop if I’m saving money. So, like, I think one thing that really annoys my friends now is that I always order Uber X’s, and they’re just. They just get so Bad. Like, they were like, we just flew on a private jet and you ordered an Uber X for us to the hotel. And I’m like, they’re like, we just landed on a private jet and you got us a Toyota Camry. And I’m like, what’s wrong with the Toyota Camry? But, like, my. My guy friends get annoyed. My girlfriends are like, chill. But like, I think, you know, guys are always trying to impress the girl or make an impression, whatever, like, they care about. So, like, when I, like, order the Uber X, like, I’m banned from ordering Ubers now. Like, my guy friends are, now they just pay for the Uber. But, like, they got so mad at me at some point because they were just like, we can’t write another Uber exclusively.

Noah Berkson: Do you feel like you want to not have, like, much liquid cash available? Because, like, then you just don’t even. Then you don’t even think to do those things right? Because now it’s like, well, I’m just going to be frugal because I don’t have a bunch of cash to.

Lucy Guo: I mean, I think that, like, I will always, like, ride Uber X’s no matter what. Like, my. My assistant, he was like, do you want me to get another car? Because he drives, like, a pretty old, I think, Toyota Camry or something. And I’m like, no, I really don’t care. Like, your car is fine. But I think there’s, like, certain things that, like, I really like fashion. And, like, if I just happen to be in an expensive store and see something really nice, I might, like, point at it and be like, ooh, I want. And by not having liquid Clash, it prevents me from doing stupid things like that. But I also love, like, cheap stores. Obviously, like, half my stuff is she. But I will say that, like, you know, sometimes Dolce and Gabbana make something really nice.

Jess Mah: Lucy super fond hang. I mean, it’s. It’s been years that I’ve had so many people say we should hang out. And I don’t know if it’s just the Asian connection or what, but I’m glad we got to do this. And it’s just rare to meet another woman who’s been really successful but who just also, you know, is so authentic and raw. I think a lot of other, like, for all women in general who I’ve interviewed or chatted with in a more public setting, a lot of them tend to be really guarded, but you’re really out there and, like, just your true self. Why do you feel able to do that?

Lucy Guo: I think it probably has to do with confidence. And just like, I love controversy. So I don’t really care about, like, people’s opinions of me versus I think a lot of people are told to, like, make this perfect image of themselves. Like, even. Even during backend, right? I would send out these tweets and I would literally have LPs call and be like, what was this? Why did you tweet this? And blah, blah, blah. But I just don’t care versus I think a lot of women feel pressured to present a perfect person due to their career.

Jess Mah: So then where did you learn that you’re okay with controversy? Because that also goes against the strict conservative Asian parenting.

Lucy Guo: I mean, I think that the confidence really helps. Like, you know, before, like, bullying, for example, would really hurt me. I was bullied when I was in elementary school, middle school and high school. Like, people would make anonymous accounts on the Internet and, like, spam me hate messages on aim on, like, Ask fm, etc. And like, as I grew more confident, like, I just realized, like, well, these people, like, I don’t even know who they are. I don’t interact with them. Like, I don’t think about them. Like, they’re literally paying attention to me for, like, like giving brain power to me. And I’m like, just out here living my best life. So I think it just, like, I feel it’s almost a compliment for me nowadays. Like, it strokes my ego if someone’s like, hitting on me because it’s just like, oh, wow, like, I’m really taking up a lot of brain space. Like, cool. And then like, on the other end, you have, like, I have a lot of fans that like, really help as well, where there’s like, we love how authentic you are and how open you are, et cetera.

Jess Mah: So it’s good for business. Net Net. The downside is you might have some employee or an investor who’s like, ah, that’s like, so out there and crazy. But yeah, but if you look at the overall picture, it’s better for you than not.

Lucy Guo: I think it is. Yeah, Because I get more attention, which, like, the creator economy is like an attention economy, essentially. And really the creators, I would say, connect with it more. Like, they’re like, oh, you’re so fun, you’re so open, you’re so cool. It really is just like more. More of the professional setting. So, for example, if I were to raise another venture fund, I think my Twitter would probably get scraped or I should lock my Twitter down to private.

Jess Mah: But would you really do that?

Lucy Guo: I prefer angel investing. For the moment at least. It’s so much easier.

Jess Mah: Yeah. When you’ve had an LP or an employee complain about being raw or authentic, how do you handle it? What do you tell them and how do do they react?

Lucy Guo: Honestly, I’m pretty good about it. I’m just like, okay, cool, I’ll delete that. Or, oh, I see your perspective, which I do. And I’m like, you know, I’ll make note. Like, I think I have gotten a lot less controversial on Twitter, which has actually upset some investors.

Jess Mah: They’re like, oh, man, there’s no winning.

Lucy Guo: They’re like, I like the old Lucy.

Jess Mah: Yeah.

Lucy Guo: They’re like, oh, man.

Noah Berkson: They like the controversy.

Lucy Guo: Yeah. Well, Lucy, usually the crypto investors.

Noah Berkson: And you also lost a lot of money. In crypto, you made a lot of money, but then subsequently lost it.

Lucy Guo: Are you talking about the meme coins?

Noah Berkson: You’re talking. Well. Oh, well, that’s a whole other thing. You bought bitcoin a long time ago, and that got hacked.

Lucy Guo: No, they got hacked. It got seized by the FBI, so I left it on an exchange. I never put it in a wallet, and obviously that was dumb of me, so I guess the exchange got seized by the FBI, so now it’s all just poof, which sucks. But, you know, life happens.

Noah Berkson: What meme. What Meme coins? What, you got a story there?

Lucy Guo: I don’t know the story. I’ve just been buying in at the wrong prices. I’ve been selling at good times. So, like, I was up, like, 10, 20x on chill guy, and then, you know, I got FOMO, and then I bought in at a bad time, and. Because I thought it was still going to go up. No, I’m down a lot, but it’s okay.

Noah Berkson: Are you gonna keep doing that? Is that just, like, kind of fun for you?

Lucy Guo: It is fun for me. I think I’m gonna continue doing it with very small amounts of money.

Noah Berkson: Okay.

Lucy Guo: Yeah.

Noah Berkson: Well, Lucy, you have awesome energy. It’s been really fun to have you here. Hopefully we can do this again sometime. Congratulations on passes and everything that you’ve accomplished there.

Lucy Guo: Thank you.

Noah Berkson: We’re fans rooting for you.

Lucy Guo: Thank you.

Noah Berkson: Looking forward to Barry’s tomorrow.

Lucy Guo: Awesome. I’m excited.

Noah Berkson: I’m gonna see if I can beat you on a tre.

Lucy Guo: That’s not possible.

Jess Mah: I’ll be sleeping.

Lucy Guo: I actually did meet a guy in Miami the other week that crushed it. I’ve never felt so incompetent in my life.

Noah Berkson: Really?

Lucy Guo: Yeah. He was keeping up with me. Not unlike the longer runs, but the very competitive I was. I love it, though, when, like, people are actually racing me. It’s fun. I find it fun. But I was like, man, this guy’s good. Like, he was pushing me, which was good, because, like, sometimes I’m, like, lazier on, like, certain parts of the run. And I was like, oh, you’re going at the speed. I have to go at the speed now.

Noah Berkson: Hope to give you a run for your money tomorrow.

Lucy Guo: Good luck.

Noah Berkson: Well, thank you. Thank you again for coming.

Lucy Guo: Thank you.

Noah Berkson: This was awesome.